Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
143 registered (A Guy, AndyP, accordeur, Anne'sson, AndreiN, 45 invisible), 1515 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2030328 - 02/10/13 08:42 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Jeffery,

Thanks for your reply and observations. smile

I agree with Jurgen's opinion too. I have no doubt in my mind either that Baldwin was scrimping . Besides looking for cheaper leather, look at what they did with the bridal wires on many brands? If you removed the straps or replaced them, which was inevitable, good luck getting them to stay back on again. It was virtually impossible with the lousy idea they had in changing the design of the wire itself.

I worked for a Baldwin/Yamaha/Aeolian/etc., dealer for 6 years 3 days a week. He was one of my mentor's and always stressed quality. He was a dealer/rebuilder/technician/RPT. He'd say things like; "you'll get further along in life doing the job right rather than doing a half a... job like anyone can do." Along with, "if you can't do it right, either call in the troops or don't do it at all."

My dad stressed those same words along with "honesty, intregrity and quality. "Those that have the best of these 3 things, will remain in business the longest when the economy turns sour" they would say. "The rest of them will find that what they do to cut corners will bite them in the butt one day."

My dealer always wondered why the rest of the piano manufacturer's seemed to manage to find the better quality material but Baldwin seemed to continue using the same old crap even years down the line.

In many cases, the corfam hardened already within the warranty period yet, it seems they continued using it regardless eventually winding up with tens of thousands of them with this stuff on them.

What really got to us as techs, was when Baldwin started dictating to us, what they would be willing to pay us to replace the stuff. It was so little that it wasn't worth doing the work so many techs that I know simply refused to do it at all. And that was only IF, it happened to show up during the warranty period. Sad.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2030380 - 02/10/13 10:15 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: TunerJeff]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeffrey,

Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
I worked for a Baldwin dealership back in the 80's, when these actions started to clack. They used to give you a kit with hammerbutt leather and catcher pre-cut. The old material pulls out fairly easily from the butt (...or did then) and you can pretty easily get it replaced. The kit we were handed included CA-glue for the job with a small tip on the bottle.

You put a dab in the bottom of the hammerbutt leather and slide into the slot, pushing quickly to get it in with short tweezers, and then a dab in the top and push it into place. Hold for a moment and it's done. No glue in the center where the jack hits it.
[...]
Did many a job on them. Still see them fairly regularly.
[...]


If you still see these repaired pianos quite regularly, you might be able to answer something I've been wondering:

Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term?

And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2030423 - 02/10/13 11:48 AM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
A manufacturer (such as Baldwin back when) making statements about supply is probably saying secretly, "not readily available at the cost point we want." The demand/supply gets out of whack for a while, the cost goes up, so they go el cheapo!

Some of the old uprights have a very thick leather on the butt knuckles that I have been told was elk leather. I have never actually tried it, but there are internet sources these days for remnant portions of about any kind of leather, including buffalo and elk. I like the kangaroo sold by Schaff.

What is your favorite these days?
_________________________
Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration

Top
#2030477 - 02/10/13 12:55 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I usually just order it from either Pianotek which is located right here in Michigan or from Schaff cut into strips. Right now I've got a back stock of them from years ago yet.

As for these jobs? I won't do them. I sub contract them out. wink I have plenty of other "funner things" to do than that. College work, concert work etc. smile

When I did though, personally, I like real leather. I don't know what it's all made out of, never got into that but, the softer mushier stuff seems to bunch up more and allows hammers to bounce off from, rather than to catch them on the back checks. There are a few brands out there today that use the softer stuff that I speak of.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#2030510 - 02/10/13 01:30 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Mark R.]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term?

And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)


Mark,
from a manufacturing standpoint CA is one of the more expensive glues. Machinery can make efficient use of many cheap hot-melts and other cheaper types which work well. These adhesives are not as practical in hand work, unless the circumstances permit it. CA's advantage is speed and the fact that you don't need to clamp it for long, if at all. (Just don't glue your fingers in the process.) So, from a manufacturing standpoint, why use the highest price glue to only get a similar result.

On the other hand, the thin CAs tend to wick away. In other words they can soak into soft leather and felt. This eliminates much of a "glue line" which creates the actual bond. Also, it can harden the material which you want to adhere to the substrate. The type to glue leather, for example, would be the gel thickness or thicker, so as to prevent the problem. The bond itself is very durable, just not always the easiest choice.

In a similar vein, when using a water based glue, felt or leather can be sized first with a preliminary application of glue and allowed to partially dry, so that the real bonding layer does not soak in and become ineffective. The reason I like old hide glue with the glue pot is the benefits of low-to-no clamp time and the non-wicking property which the glue has. It cools so quickly that it does not have time to soak deeply, assuming it has not been chemically retarded and the glue is the right thickness for the job at hand.
_________________________
Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration

Top
#2030518 - 02/10/13 01:36 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
And it allow to gain some stretch when it sets
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2030597 - 02/10/13 03:38 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 498
Loc: Oregon Coast
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Hi Jeffery, Thanks for your reply and observations. He'd say things like; "you'll get further along in life doing the job right rather than doing a half a... job like anyone can do." Along with, "if you can't do it right, either call in the troops or don't do it at all."


Dear Jerry,

Yup. Along with that is the ever popular; 'There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over."

True, eh?
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

Top
#2030621 - 02/10/13 04:08 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: Mark R.]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 498
Loc: Oregon Coast
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

If you still see these repaired pianos quite regularly, you might be able to answer something I've been wondering: Is a cloth-to-wood or leather-to-wood repair using CA durable in the long term? And if it is indeed durable, why is CA not used more extensively in action building and repairs? (Seeing as it is so easy and quick to use...)


Dear Mark,

None of the CA glueing on these butts has failed to my knowledge. I've not had a callback on any in 20+ years, at least. I do NOT use CA for any major parts installing, as you are wondering.

I'm not enough of a chemist to tell you the problems with longterm CA aging. I do know that M&H, or the WNG parts section, are using CA for the hammer to shank gluing on the new tube-shanks they created. Bruce Clark gave a fascinating seminar in Portland on using the new WNG materials. I know they have confidence in their approach and the durability of the job.

Perhaps others can weigh in on this? One issue is easily seen on keyboards where an owner has CA'd keytops back on. The rigid glue (and others, too) fails when the keystick expands under the keytop and pops the joint. Might be an issue in other joints, too. Gotta use the right glue for the right job in any gluing situation!

Roger Jolly/Samick, at national, suggested using PVC-E glue to attach the leather pads on grand-trapwork (where the pedal rod contacts the lever, for example), and adds a drop of CA to get them to stay put immediately. I have used that idea successfully. But, using CA as a regular glue in actions? No.

Let's see what others have to say!

In breathless anticipation,
I am,
Turning blue....
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

Top
#2030643 - 02/10/13 04:40 PM Re: Buckskin like concrete [Re: pianotune2]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
The old glue for leather/metal was burnt shellac , worked quiet well .
PVCE works fine , sometime, I have seen damper felt glued with PVCE falling literally from the wood some 10 years later
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
- > Gift Ideas for Music Lovers < -
From PianoSupplies.com a division of Piano World.
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The friction, blubbering, and lost motion are eradicated!
by music32
9 minutes 25 seconds ago
Merry Christmas
by MusicaMusique
39 minutes 31 seconds ago
Problems with the forum
by Peter071
50 minutes 11 seconds ago
A 4ths and 5ths sequence
by Gerry Johnston
58 minutes 56 seconds ago
Harry Truman on Piano Shopping
by Nelsthepianoplayer
59 minutes 12 seconds ago
Forum Stats
77362 Members
42 Forums
159999 Topics
2349595 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission