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#1985515 - 11/11/12 08:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 624
Hello Mike, did you bring up the issue with R&D about the uneven spacing found on the newer models. I followed your advice and contacted the retailer for a replacement and am getting one, but I think some consideration has to be given to this issue.

Having newer piano sounds and nicer keys are important and the piano is fantastic, but it is important as well to focus on consistency along the keybed.
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#1985596 - 11/12/12 03:54 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2361
Loc: UK
Show me a sub $1000 board that does not have reports of key spacing irregularities? On this forum there are similar reports for boards costing above $2000 from other manufacturers! Not saying its right, but Casio are not alone. There's an ill defined point of pleasing aesthetics, versus function, nit picking and and defect. Same applies to an acoustic.

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#1985827 - 11/12/12 05:53 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: spanishbuddha]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 624
I must have been more fortunate with the other 3 I have; I am getting my replacement and hope to drop the subject as I know I am probably being a pain about it lol
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#1999239 - 12/14/12 02:05 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Did some heavy experimenting with the brilliance and velocity levels on the 650. None of these variables affect the tonal decay on the middle range.

Here is the piece I'm referring to (as an example, being played on a Kawai CN21)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOev7vd2tQ

The melody line cannot be recreated like this on the 650 no matter what techniques are adapted or what parameters are set. The important and fundamental melodic sequence being played in the middle range cuts off far too early via the tonal decay even with sustain being utilised. It's key for me (excuse the pun) as an intermediate pianist that this is retained, not released.


I tried all of the same settings on the Casio AP-620 although nothing seemed to improve the lack of tonal decay in the samples. I now have a Kawai EP3 (which is $300 less than the Casio) as it has sufficient decay.

There is no way you can sustain the melodic line properly in the Schubert impromptu (score is linked to, above) as this is not possible on the Casio AP-620. Looks like the decay is not long enough with the AP-650, too.

This clearly indicates that the new (3x) memory allocation for the Casio AP-650 is still not enough, as the short "tonal decay" you mention has always been an Achilles' heel for Casio, in all of their models.

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#1999249 - 12/14/12 03:36 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Damien Salvador Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 7
Loc: France
I bought an AP-450 a month ago, enjoying it.
It made a recording for the DPBSD project, I am unable to analyze it, but it is available at :
http://www.mediafire.com/?wg1knutcd5md0vh

I did not detect a shocking decay when playing (my reference is the end of JS Bach Fuga II with a sustained left hand, no pedal, while right hand is playing the theme)

(I'm playing with all defaults settings)


Edited by Damien Salvador (12/14/12 03:37 AM)

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#1999259 - 12/14/12 04:12 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Damien Salvador]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Please note "andy0140" above mentioned it is not possible to correctly sustain/play the long melodic lines in the Schubert impromptu, with the AP-650.

This is the same reason I now have a Kawai EP3 (instead of the Casio AP-620) as the Casio was not able to sustain the melodic lines in the impromptu, and, other pieces.

And, the overall resonance is too thin/sparse in the Casio AP-620 with heavier chordal passages.

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#1999273 - 12/14/12 06:01 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
I'm holding firm on this one.

Damien Salvador - am I missing something on your demo ? Its just a sample of single notes across the range being played individually. There is no real melody in that MP3.

I'm still waiting to hear Mike Martin's rendition of the Impromptu on the 650 which was offered in this thread.

And...I dont have this issue on the Roland RP301R.

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#1999296 - 12/14/12 07:41 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Damien Salvador Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 7
Loc: France
andy01040
No you're not missing anything smile This is the recording of the midi file for DPBSD from an adjoining thread :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103/1.html

This is definitively not meant to be listened as a background music for an intimate dinner !

Dewster uses these recordings to make comparisons about the sampling technologies for different DP. So if you want to measure decay objectively, you've got a reference point as there are several Roland recordings (did not see the 301R):
http://www.mediafire.com/?231dpr3ctpa8r#77vy8y6z231yz

What I'm saying is that I did not detect an outrageous loss when playing, contrary to what I could experience on my parents (very) old clavinova from the late 80's.

My personal test was on BWV 847, fuga II (but no recording):
http://www.free-scores.com/partitions_telecharger.php?partition=466
for the last 2 measures which are playable without rushing (my perception, mileage may vary)

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#2000060 - 12/15/12 10:55 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I'm still waiting to hear Mike Martin's rendition of the Impromptu on the 650 which was offered in this thread.


Doubt that Mike will be able to add any further decay (or, sustain) to the melodic line in the Impromptu, as I already know this is an inherent problem of the AP-620, too.

As you (Andy) have already confirmed the same lack of decay with the AP-650.

Wonder why the new (3x) memory allocation was not sufficient?

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#2010102 - 01/06/13 03:50 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Andy,
I'm quite familiar with the piece, I've played it. As I said, I'll get a recording up of this on a Privia / Celviano.

PS. No recordings before next week though, I'm at our office in Japan this week.



Mike - any chance of a recording of the impromptu yet on the 650 ? Still v interested to hear your reaction and opinion. Or do I take it by a lack of response my judgement speaks volumes ?

Andy.


Edited by andy0140 (01/06/13 03:52 PM)

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#2010138 - 01/06/13 04:52 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@andy0140,

You are right about the decay not being sufficient with the AP-650 as it appears to behave very similarly to the AP-620 which also has very short decay.

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#2010921 - 01/07/13 11:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Guys sorry for the delay.

This clip was done on a PX-350 using the default Concert Grand preset. The AP-650 to be honest would sound a little different due to it's sympathetic resonance and key release features, but I'm traveling so much and haven't been near an AP-650.

Schubert Improptu Op90 No3
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#2011370 - 01/08/13 05:54 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike - appreciate the response & upload. You can indeed play the piece quite well - No doubt.

Did you really enjoy playing that piece on the Casio ??? Because the sound is so very synthetic and displeasing to the ear as my original post clearly stated - that decay is unsuitable for these sort of pieces of music.

I've recorded my own copy of this here :

Schubert Impromptu in G Flat Major Op90 No 3 - Andy Salter

Admittedly there are a few minor mistakes in my recording as this was done live but I hope that my rendition clearly demonstrates the vast differences in sound & decay/sustain.

Andy


Edited by andy0140 (01/08/13 06:28 PM)

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#2011379 - 01/08/13 06:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9206
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Some people are never satisfied...
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#2011392 - 01/08/13 07:03 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2361
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Some people are never satisfied...

I preferred the Casio wink

Since the first was on a PX350, and I assume the second on RP301 (?) we're not hearing a comparison of similarly priced, or market segment products. There are as usual a number of unknown factors too such as instrument settings, recording, player ability, etc.


Nicely played, I thought, by both.


Edited by spanishbuddha (01/08/13 07:04 PM)

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#2011469 - 01/08/13 10:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Kawai James]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Some people are never satisfied...


+1!

K.
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#2011524 - 01/09/13 01:50 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@andy0140,

It sounds like you did a very nice job with recording the Schubert Impromptu as this is a difficult piece in which to bring out the melodic line, and, I applaud your effort on it.

Decided to record a short excerpt myself, however, the reason I was not able to play the entire piece is that I have been having an issue with some muscles in my back (tightening up when playing), so I have to limit how much I exert myself, both at the keyboard and computer while typing.

Now wearing a wrist brace for support on my right hand due to strain, there. Have just ordered a new computer/office chair which I should have by the end of the week to try and alleviate these problems while typing and at the piano.

Schubert Impromptu - Op. 90, No. 3 - excerpt:

[17 seconds of silence before playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithm

Extra note:

Replaced the CA95 recording with another at the Kawai EP3 as I thought this digital has the best decay for the piece.

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#2011627 - 01/09/13 09:23 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Vampire Killer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 10
@andy0140, would you please let me know how you enjoy the keyboard and external speakers of RP-301?

I had been waiting for the PX-358 (PX-350 Chinese Special) for a few months but start to consider investing twice for an RP-301/F120.


Edited by Vampire Killer (01/09/13 09:26 AM)

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#2011649 - 01/09/13 10:36 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
2 Awards from me:

1. for Excellent playing
2. best instrument's sound of the topic (Your CA95?) - Most balanced and natural.

Andy's playing was nice as well, I thought it was the Roland VPiano Grand. Sound of which not that pleasing.

Mike's instrument made his job more tough - but in another price league.

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#2011656 - 01/09/13 10:55 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
PV88:
Do you know NadaChair?.I have it and found almost ideal for piano playing (for rehearsal; I have very serious herniated disk in the neck.) It is a must to try if You don't know it. Unlike a chair with back support it allows an active sitting while providing support. On a fix chair you are not leaning back!

The only inconvenience is with pedalling, which was critical for You especially with Your CA95 (Pedal depth). I developed a special unorthodox pedalling techniques:
1. pulling foot out of my slippers but rest my heel on it
2. on my old CA51 (now sold) I did pedalling with the heel, while resting the front part of the foot on the pedal bridge (which the CA95 doesn't have unfortunately.)
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#2011670 - 01/09/13 11:33 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Temperament]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
My recording was done on a Roland RP301R with maximum reverb and -5 on brilliance. This piano retails around the £1250 price mark.

The Casio AP-650 (which has an identical decay tone to the PX-350) retails at £1099.

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#2011681 - 01/09/13 11:57 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Nice playing, I would say even professional.
Playability and sound control of the 301R seemes to be good - just were much synthetic details in the sound - I thought for that that it must have been a modelled instrument.

I could try the AP450 in a big shop in Vienna (Austria), and the sound was very similar to this one on the PX-350. Keyboard action was better as sound quality. Playability (with built-in sound module) suffered slightly for some hard to control high velocity notes - perhaps you can accustom to it and not a problem at all, or might be easily to control by adjusting the velocity curve. (Maybe not a matter with SW instruments either.)

Some experiences with Casio xxx50 keyboard and VSTi-s? They all have the same action!


Edited by Temperament (01/09/13 12:04 PM)
Edit Reason: beginning was cut off

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#2011682 - 01/09/13 12:12 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Man I cannot believe the differences between the Kawai / Roland / Casio samples above. The latter doesn't sound so bad until put up against the two formers.


Edited by xorbe (01/26/13 03:32 AM)

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#2011699 - 01/09/13 01:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Anyone find it funny that we have poster A saying piano x sounds "very synthetic and displeasing to the ear" and then posts example from piano y to "clearly demonstrate the vast differences in sound and decay" followed by poster B saying that piano y has sound that was "not that pleasing" and "much synthetic details in the sound"?

I sure do. They all have a long way to go.

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#2011895 - 01/09/13 08:30 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Temperament]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@Temperament,

Thanks for the info you have given above, and, it just occurred to me that part of the problem (with the back muscle tension) at the CA95 is due to pedaling as the pedals are indeed too close/forward to the player, for the most part. Might try elevating the heel of my foot to make pedaling a little easier. Having proper posture while sitting and making sure the entire body is balanced (and in correct alignment) may help to alleviate these issues.

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#2012193 - 01/10/13 10:32 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: ONfrank]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I was poster B.

Some explanations to be more specific: x: Casio xxx50, y:Roland SN sound.

I found "y" was simply that much better that it was a pitty the percieved synthetical details deterioreted the otherwise convincing sound experiment. I concluded it must be some modelled source, which is partially true due to the fact, that SN (SuperNatural sound of Roland) is a mix of sampling/modelling. (To simplify it: sampled attack and instead of the looped sample fragments modelled tails.)

The xxx50 sound I found generally much more artificial (not as in parts of the music and not in details). But to be honest not bad for the category they are positioned - and their keyboard action is honestly a real merit of them.

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#2012721 - 01/11/13 11:01 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)

Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)

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#2012758 - 01/11/13 12:20 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)

Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)


I would reiterate what has been expounded at length within this forum, regularly. Please ... do not purchase anything without playing it first. Especially a piano which may have some issues which have been suggested through this forum.
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#2012895 - 01/11/13 03:11 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Unfortunately I don’t have the option of playing a digital piano first. There is a local Yamaha dealer which would be great if I were going to buy a Clavinova. Outside of that, it’s 200 miles to the nearest piano dealer.

If you use the IRS travel allowance of $0.565 per mile ( http://www.irs.gov/uac/2013-Standard-Mileage-Rates-Up-1-Cent-per-Mile-for-Business,-Medical-and-Moving ), it would cost me 400 x $0.565 = $226.00 (round trip miles) just to visit a dealer. And Casio and Kawai dealers are 200 miles away in different directions.

The only guidelines that I have are what I can find on the Internet. The primary issue with earlier Priva’s and Celviano’s was the decay time. PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing in regard to that problem.

If anyone has a contact with a Kawai dealer who will give me a good price on a Kawai CN34, please get in touch with me. (I’m still open to a Kawai option.) Note, I’m primarily interested in classical music, and used to play at a fairly advanced level. (Some 35 years ago.)

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#2012918 - 01/11/13 03:59 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
The primary issue with earlier Priva’s and Celviano’s was the decay time. PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing in regard to that problem.


Apparently, that demo mean't more to you than the experience of the person who started this thread. Maybe you got in late to this thread and didn't read the earlier comments. You may wish to do so.


Here is the opening comment to this thread ...

Quote:

Received last weekend.

Packaged up today. Returning to the store. After all the good reviews of the AP620 I took a punt and went for the 650 without trying it out first. Yes, a gamble in itself. I'm upgrading from a Yamaha YDP-141.

Understatement to say that I'm extremely disappointed with the 650. Had high hopes. Main issue is the tonal decay (specifically in regards to the piano sound) in the middle range of the keyboard. It's just too fast and unrealistic. Delicate classical pieces (I'm an intermediate pianist) just do not cut it (example Schubert impromptu in g flat) and it annoys me how Casio can market a piano with so much focus on the keyboard effect without noticing that the grand piano tone isnt realistic. The accompaniments are also distinctly average.


I'm expecting delivery of a Roland RP-301R as already played this when I was looking around....and cannot wait to read people's experiences of the Casio AP650. I appear to be one of the first to air my views.

Rant over, hopefully a word of warning to other potential 650 buyers, and perhaps to introduce myself....I'm from the UK.


The reason I am so adament about this is because I did the exact same thing, albeit with the AP620.

I wish you good luck.


Edited by dmd (01/11/13 04:03 PM)
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