Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Tokiwa or Wessell Nickel & Gross shanks?

Ed, thanks for this.

What is interesting about all this is that I am more concerned about touch than tone. The reason I originally thought of keeping the old hammers was because I am really quite happy with the sound & tone of this particular C7. I've played a bunch of others, and none had quite the power and singing ability of this one. Actually an impressive instrument, and I am a tough critic.

But the touch needs work at this point...

I'm all for WNG parts, but if you are trying to solve touch issues, I think this is an inappropriate, or at least unnecessarily complicated way of trying to solve it, especially if you like the way the piano currently sounds. More likely than not, the wood shanks on your piano are perfectly usable. Lubing action centers is notoriously unreliable way of solving friction issues.... you should have replaced all the center pins from the get go, and maybe even re-bushed them.

I like Eds suggestion of changing the knuckle diameter. You could do this to the original shanks, and it'd be a 2 for 1 deal since they could probably stand being replaced anyway.

Followed by a thorough friction treatment and regulation, I bet your piano would see a tremendous improvement.... for a fraction of the cost of new shanks/hammers. I mean, seriously, the parts alone for new shanks and hammers would cost you somewhere in the $800-$900 range, or more, if you get them pre hung. Kind of a waste unless you want to get the WNG just for the sake of having WNG parts... I'm doubtful that this, by itself, will solve your problem. If you are determined to go through with this, you can get 16lb Ronsen Weickert hammers from Dale Erwin pre bored, etc; that is who I use.

I am reminded of one of the CFIIIses that I had to tune for a pianist I consider as one of the technically best in the world. The touch of this piano had been altered by adding paper clips to the shanks, which had bothered me. The pianist complained, so I had half an hour before the house opened to move all of these paper clips. I did not want to remove them, because I was concerned that the spring tension would be wrong, and besides, it was not my piano.

There are any number of problems in a piano that can be fixed just by standard methods, and can be made worse by complicated methods.

I am with BDB on the paper clips to increase touch resistance. It is not that much more work to remove a key-lead, (if you have the proper tools) and then the rep springs stay where they are, the action controls at soft playing is better, the key return is quicker, and fortissimo playing is less tiring. Inertia is a bitch!

Oh I forgot to add to my post about W,N&G changeout that the treble will sustain and project even more with the lighter hammers and even better-the regulation and stability of tone quality will be ever so much improved.

Original knuckles are 9.78 mm (I guess that really means 9.75). This was my original course of action - just replace the knuckles first. Maybe I should just do that, and re-pin the other shanks I have not pinned yet. This does not seem like a very expensive approach, and if I still don't like the results, then I could think about other steps?

Why would smaller knuckles make a difference?

Again, my other thought was just swapping out the shanks with Tokiwas, keeping the old hammers. That also seem actually pretty straightforward to me. I would then get the original knuckle size, though. A full set of shanks runs around $500.

Smaller knuckles means less "bump" at escapement. New knuckles means more even friction.
Your latest plan sounds like a good approach for starters. You can glue the new knuckles in like gluing hammers except have the top action upside down on bench and line up new knuckles with straight edge as you dry-fit each one before gluing. You can avoid bumping recently glued ones by alternating installation from center to end to opposite end of the action.
To remove old knuckles I use my small band saw to cut the core nearly flush with shank and then band saw down center of core stopping just before bottom of slot. Use utility knife to remove remaining core and the slot will look just like new.

Yeah...except that the techs who take the advice to add the clips to the shanks are looking for an increase in Strike weight for tonal reasons...mostly. This is part of the "heavy hammers are required for good tone" approach...an approach that I disagree with wholeheartedly. It is an approach which is only just recently beginning to feel a push back back from the larger tech community...as in...there are many ways to shape the tone of a piano.

Adding Strikeweight may have a place in some very large venues and for some pianists on the top of the pile, but my experience has been that these pianists are muscular outliers. The instruments they play and the large venues they play in have singular tonal requirements that 99% of the rest of fine pianists will suffer under.

Jim Ialeggio

Hello Airspeed,

We are currently working on a Yamaha C7 from a similar vintage to yours. We are using some WNG parts in it, but based on the clients goals and our experience, we have chosen to use wooden shanks.
As an aside, for those that think the WNG shanks don't change the touch, I suggest you weigh them and compare that weight with wooden shanks. You might be surprised. We were.

I invite you to call me to make an appointment to try the C7 we are working on, as I think it will give you important information that you don't currently have.

Greetings,
I don't know about that. The actual weight of the shank on the scale indicates the WNG shanks weigh more, but the distribution is such that the SW is little changed, since the heaviest part of the shank is farthest away from the hammer.
I think this is an easily recovered few tenths of a gram and a small price to pay for the evenness the carbon fiber makes and the stability it produces. For that amount of control, felt bushings would be pinned at four to five times as tight, so changes of touch of such small amounts can be afforded in the overall picture. Getting solid directional stability with only 2 grams pinning resistance opens up a fair allowance for the extra weight. Replace the capstans with the WNG anodized ones and you will be well ahead.
Also, I am noticing what seem to be much more defined string grooves in the hammers of the WNG actions I have put in the practice rooms. It follows if the bushings are so definite that the impact will be, too.

Greetings,
I never liked the big hammers, either. Best action I ever played had little hammers and a high ratio. Lotta snap in that one. The direction of the last few decades, which have seen wholesale moves towards the big hammers in little pianos is nuts, imho.
However, I just finished putting the Staples "micro" size spring clips on a Steinway M. These weigh .6 grams each, and the action DW went up by 2 1/2 grams. The Renner Blues have a SW in the high medium range, and DW at #40 was already 50 grams. The professor who was getting the piano played it and asked me to up it some. The keyboard, (which was already finely weighed off to + or - 1 gram from key to key), didn't need me removing leads, and I wanted something easily reversible. This was also a way to do this without altering the consistency, so it had a lot of things going for it.
She played it again and absolutely loved it, mentioning that she was going to ask me to voice it down before, but now it sounded and felt perfect. There will always be a market for a wide range of piano response, a wide range of SW, and being able, via the use of the clips, to shift gears so fundamentally in 30 minutes is a valuable approach for any tech.
Regards,

We were surprised that the WNG shanks were heavier. Before we checked, we assumed they would be lighter since the other WNG parts are lighter than standard ( such as the capstans you mention or the whipps ).
Some wooden shanks are lighter than others, so the difference can be larger. And, one can further lighten wooden shanks should they choose.
This is not a make or break issue for carbon fiber shanks vs wooden shanks. The carbon fibre shanks change the sound and feel in a way that not everyone likes.
In an institutional setting, the carbon fiber flange is more important than for home usage, and it is understandable, especially in an institution that choices between performance and maintenance have to be considered carefully.

I swapped out one of the shanks with a new one, and on the old shank I tried a pair of giant sized end-nippers that are sold by some vendor as a "knuckle removal tool". At first I heard a crack, and all that was was the glue - the knuckle came right out. This was also recommended to me by a tech here, and is a technique shown on YouTube.

Whose knuckles, I ask? Renner is willing to sell me a set for $200, International piano Supply has some of most likely questionable origin for $90, vandaking.com (aka Pianoshowcase, seems to be mostly Schaff they are selling) has Tokiwas for about the same price as Renner. If I swap out the shanks with Tokiwas, I get standard sized knuckle with a new shank, if I want smaller knuckles, it would make more sense to keep the old shanks.

(I hope I am not sounding too knuckleheaded... )

I don't like the few times using the end cutters to remove knuckles results in a split shank. My esthetic sensibilities are offended by spot replacement of parts into a consistent original set of parts. And some pianos that are getting knuckle replacement are ones that no shank available today will at all match the originals. So I use the band saw and razor knife.

Adding the shank weight "dulls" the tone slightly because the added inertia is increasing the hammer contact time. Their use may be useful and appropriate for some tech's but again it doesn't fit my esthetic standards. It's just the way I roll.

Why would you order anything from Vandaking or Int'l Piano Supply? They mark their wares up quite a bit... Tokiwa knuckles should cost considerably less than Renner. You can get knuckles with a wooden core from WNG and they are half the cost of Renner's.

To further this discussion, I want to hear anyone who didn't like or had people who didn't like the new piano actions report what did or did not work to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the composite action, as I cannot find much information pertaining to the hidden caveats detracting from the desired feel of WNG's new action design e.g. material friction, escapement blocking at desired settings, and noise problems beyond what was discussed in this thread.

Greetings,
I would like to hear about this, too. The composite actions I have built and placed into professional service are getting rave reviews on sensitivity and response. "escapement blocking at desired settings" is a completely unknown term, so I don't know what that is all about.

I do know that the hard bushings allow a 2 gram friction resistance with orders of magnitude better control of the hammer. And the consistency is so far beyond wood that there is no comparison available.
It is also useless to say the shanks change the sound unless one has tried the same hammer on both. I haven't tried that, but nobody is having any reservations about the sound around here we are getting with them.
Regards,

I had one rebuilding prospect reject them just because they were not wood. She tried one of my pianos with W,N&G shanks and liked the way it played and sounded but could not bring herself to accept anything but wood. I declined to work for her.

The shank noise is much more consistent from note to note and this helps make the piano sound and feel even. I was reluctant to install a set until I had an opportunity to listen to a piano with them on when it was very quiet and I could focus on the hammer strike sound alone. I did not want to be surprised with a "thwack" that was more unpleasant than wood. I find the carbon "thwack" to be more pleasant that wood but by a barely noticeable difference.

My stance also. I've switched to composite/carbon-fiber and am not looking back. At this stage, I'm not going to expose myself to the extra work and instability associated with wood.

Greetings,
Some time ago, I asked for any feedback inre the superiority of wood over the carbon fiber, and not a single response was had. Does anybody care to offer a reason for using the wood and felt-bushed parts, other than that is the way it has always been done? Weight was mentioned, but the weight of the whippen, measured at the capstan, is less with the composite parts, and the SW I have been measuring is within .2 grams of the average wooden shank,(Tokiwa, Renner, Steinway). This .2 grams is less than the variability found within any set of wooden parts. It is hard to compare, though, since the carbon fiber shanks are all the same, and the wooden ones from all the suppliers are erratic...
Regards,