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#2029134 - 02/08/13 03:33 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Del]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: Olek
WHy can't we find analyzed spectra samples, and comparaisons , even if not at a high precision laboratory level, any one owning a decent sound card and a mike can make samples, and analyse the shape of the tone (with some error margin indeed but are not tenedancies shows enough so to make temporary conclusions ?)

When I see a spectra I see the most prominent partials and their level

When I analyse the "envelope" (dont know if this is the good word. I see how the tone behave.

Even Audicity, which is free, allow top do so.

Audicity is basically recording software. It gives you a good time-series plot of the sound envelope but it does not tell us anything about frequency. We can only get volume (power) relative to time.

To get frequency we need a spectrum analyzer. And separating out energy generated by longitudinal modes relative to transverse modes gets tricky. The best way is to incorporate accelerometers that can isolate vibrations relative to the direction of motion but good ones are expensive. A decent tri-axial accelerometer can easily run better than $2,000. And then there are the electronics to drive it an process the signal(s).

I have a pair of fairly good single axis accelerometers that one day Real Soon Now I’m going to try to set up to measure some of this but I don’t know how successful I’ll be until I try it.

If I do make it work I’ll try to publish the results somewhere.

Until somebody does this we have to rely on human ears which are not all that bad a measuring and analysis device when coupled with some experience and thought. I await Ed’s articles with some interest.

ddf


Hi thank you for chiming, you may relate to older versions of audacity, you can ploit the frequencies and see the peaks in audacity, based on a selection. DOyou mean a freqency analysis tool must be real time initially ?

But even on a PC there are more sound analysis oriented tools as WavePad http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/fft.html
.
I had one very professional one, but not the hardware adequate to use it. but a simple ZOom H2 is yet enough to take strings samples and see what one hear

I have been working as a tuner at the IRCAM lab in Paris when they begin to use accelerometers, but it was on an old Petrof and the tone thickening was not very apparent on old strings.

Often I have seen the experiences did show interesting things but nothing conclusive came from unisons, and they where not analyzed as such.

When I will have time and contacts, I will try to setup something so we can try to see how the mix Tmode Lmode is evolving during unison tuning.

High speed camera should be excellent also to see how the phase works between strings, the only videos I have seen did not include sound samples, nor time frame, only polarisation (wapin) was seen. no idea of the way the unison was "build"

BTW I asked that on another thread, where it seem that lower tension could raise the sound volume when usiong the Excel spreadsheet based on the "calculating Technician" .
To me mor etension mean more volume, is not it ?
or do you know if volume is measured as a first partial value (in the Travis book) ?

Thanks

I.O.



Edited by Olek (02/08/13 03:39 AM)
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#2029290 - 02/08/13 12:55 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5174
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
Hi thank you for chiming, you may relate to older versions of audacity, you can ploit the frequencies and see the peaks in audacity, based on a selection. DOyou mean a freqency analysis tool must be real time initially ?

My copy of Audacity was fairly old. I’ve just downloaded the most recent version and I see what you mean. That feature plots the spectrum of a wave envelope without reference to a specific time. To be useful in analyzing the sound produced by a piano it needs to be able to isolate the spectrum to a specific instant of time.

Since most of the information that enables us to identify and quantify a piano tone comes in that first burst of energy at impact and immediately following impact it is necessary to be able to isolate the energy spectrum and watch what happens during this time.



Quote:
But even on a PC there are more sound analysis oriented tools as WavePad http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/fft.html
.
I had one very professional one, but not the hardware adequate to use it. but a simple ZOom H2 is yet enough to take strings samples and see what one hear

Yes, there are good PC tools available but they are not cheap. (Actually, there are several software fft programs available as shareware. They are pretty fussy and I’ve never been able to get them to do anything really useful but I’m not a computer guru. Someone else could probably do better.) Neither are the peripherals such as measurement mics (those contained in Zoom products are not good enough), mic pre-amps, etc.

The mic needs to be flat from at least 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz and not many are. The cost of a suitable measurement mic, at least, has come down considerably over the past few years. Twenty years ago nothing was available for less than $1,500 to $2,000. Today mics adequate for our purpose can be had for $200 to $300. They are not quite as good as those from the dedicated measurement instrument manufacturers but they are good enough.

ddf
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#2029327 - 02/08/13 01:55 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Del]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Yes Del, but frankly to do the basic checking I wanted to do (just see how the most important partials behave during unison tuning) the software (free version) I gave the link is perfect

Good display and some editing functions, not much analysis tool indeed but that is yet positive.

The clearing and quiet behavior of the second partial is visible at the same time it is heard. (real time then)

Another point , less easy to see but may be related, is that the fundamental is not as stable as expected, and get better with hammer mating (I file a little the crown in the recorded samples)

It is fun to see how the top spectra get quiet, with a smooth extinction, as soon a sthe unison is tuned clear.

I will try similar recordings with a different way for unison, and see if I can get a more stable fundamental while the rest of the spectra is also good.

I agree that certainly to work in the regions of Lmodes and to analyse their interations with the sensors you tell of, expensive software and material is needed.

There is a very good software availeable for free only for one month , the name escapes me, but the phase is manageable, lot of add on availeable, I will post the name asap.
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#2029436 - 02/08/13 06:15 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5174
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
There is a very good software availeable for free only for one month , the name escapes me, but the phase is manageable, lot of add on availeable, I will post the name asap.

I've probably tried most of them by now. The one I currently use when I'm traveling is SpectraPLUS. With options. That, along with an Audix measurement mic and a good preamp/phantom power supply makes a fairly good portable system.

My two accelerometers are fairly small -- the cables take up most of the space -- but the constant-current power supply/preamp is USB powered and, for some reason doesn't communicate with Windows 8. It looks like I'll have to replace it. More money gone.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2029462 - 02/08/13 07:15 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Del]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1708
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: Olek
Hi thank you for chiming, you may relate to older versions of audacity, you can ploit the frequencies and see the peaks in audacity, based on a selection. DOyou mean a freqency analysis tool must be real time initially ?

My copy of Audacity was fairly old. I’ve just downloaded the most recent version and I see what you mean. That feature plots the spectrum of a wave envelope without reference to a specific time. To be useful in analyzing the sound produced by a piano it needs to be able to isolate the spectrum to a specific instant of time.

Since most of the information that enables us to identify and quantify a piano tone comes in that first burst of energy at impact and immediately following impact it is necessary to be able to isolate the energy spectrum and watch what happens during this time.



Quote:
But even on a PC there are more sound analysis oriented tools as WavePad http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/fft.html
.
I had one very professional one, but not the hardware adequate to use it. but a simple ZOom H2 is yet enough to take strings samples and see what one hear

Yes, there are good PC tools available but they are not cheap. (Actually, there are several software fft programs available as shareware. They are pretty fussy and I’ve never been able to get them to do anything really useful but I’m not a computer guru. Someone else could probably do better.) Neither are the peripherals such as measurement mics (those contained in Zoom products are not good enough), mic pre-amps, etc.

The mic needs to be flat from at least 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz and not many are. The cost of a suitable measurement mic, at least, has come down considerably over the past few years. Twenty years ago nothing was available for less than $1,500 to $2,000. Today mics adequate for our purpose can be had for $200 to $300. They are not quite as good as those from the dedicated measurement instrument manufacturers but they are good enough.

ddf


I haven't used Audacity in a while, but I believe one can limit the spectral plots to specific points in time. I think what you'd have to do is to take data over the whole time of interest, save it to a file, open it in Audacity, select the start and stop time, and then look at the spectral plot. Setting the start and stop time may discard the rest of the recording, but if you have a copy saved on your hard drive that shouldn't be a problem.

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#2029619 - 02/09/13 01:48 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Roy123]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5174
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Roy123
I haven't used Audacity in a while, but I believe one can limit the spectral plots to specific points in time. I think what you'd have to do is to take data over the whole time of interest, save it to a file, open it in Audacity, select the start and stop time, and then look at the spectral plot. Setting the start and stop time may discard the rest of the recording, but if you have a copy saved on your hard drive that shouldn't be a problem.

I think you're right. I just downloaded it and looked at it briefly but I don't know why what you're suggesting wouldn't work. A little cumbersome if you're interested in more than one time period but it is free. And, of course, it's missing my favorite waterfall plot.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
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#2029662 - 02/09/13 05:21 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Del]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: Olek
There is a very good software availeable for free only for one month , the name escapes me, but the phase is manageable, lot of add on availeable, I will post the name asap.

I've probably tried most of them by now. The one I currently use when I'm traveling is SpectraPLUS. With options. That, along with an Audix measurement mic and a good preamp/phantom power supply makes a fairly good portable system.

My two accelerometers are fairly small -- the cables take up most of the space -- but the constant-current power supply/preamp is USB powered and, for some reason doesn't communicate with Windows 8. It looks like I'll have to replace it. More money gone.

ddf



Yes Spectra plus, seem to be one of the most adaptable ones , that was the name I was looking for

I hope you will be able to setup your equipment soon

You have a waterfall and a free version for the soft I gave the link, http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/fft.html

sure realtime is more useful. you use the Quad capture Roland ?














Edited by Olek (02/09/13 05:38 AM)
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#2029849 - 02/09/13 11:57 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5174
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
Yes Spectra plus, seem to be one of the most adaptable ones , that was the name I was looking for

I hope you will be able to setup your equipment soon

You have a waterfall and a free version for the soft I gave the link, http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/fft.html

sure realtime is more useful. you use the Quad capture Roland ?

I've been using my basic travel setup -- including SpectraPLUS on my laptop -- for years. It's not the best fft system available but it is relatively low cost (a little more than $1,000 with options) and, obviously, portable. I can carry everything I need in a small, canvas case in my computer bag through airport security with only a few raised eyebrows. (Through the X-ray machines the microphone looks like the barrel of a gun....) They sometimes don't like 15' of microphone cable either so I pack that in checked luggage if I'm taking any.

I've been using other equipment in my office/workshop at home but it is less portable and more complicated and I'm not sure the results are all that much better.

It was only recently that I lost the use of my accelerometers. But I don't usually travel with them. I purchased the accelerometers to work with the bridges and soundboard units on my string test frame. They work well for this but mounting them requires modifying the bridges and/or soundboards to mount them.

I’ve been considering adding a new one that would travel along with me but, again, these things are pricey. The two I have now ran about $350 each and the one I’m considering next is way more than that.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2029888 - 02/09/13 01:17 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Del]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Oleg and all:

For analysis, do not forget Spear, the program created by Michael Klingbeil. Its graphics are not striking, but it lets you see partials and their amplitudes shift in time, displaying them as lines running across the screen. Since it allows you to then synthesize the note into sine waves and broken into moveable nodes, you can, within the program, silence a partial or several partials, change their relative amplitudes, or change their pitch at specific moments in time to hear the result: http://www.klingbeil.com/spear/

Note that for the best accuracy, one can calibrate the lowest amplitude it will register. As in all similar programs, the better the recording, and thus the less noise\hiss\hum, the better the result.



Edited by Jake Jackson (02/09/13 01:33 PM)

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#2029903 - 02/09/13 01:49 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Hi ! I certainly wish to setup analysis with accelerometers, but I understand the difficulty to position them well, unless a 2 dimension goodie is used.

I seem to recall that they where glued to the bridge, and where fairely small, at the IRCAM.

Is not it possible to use simple mikes to detect phase shifts, I suppose at the soundboard/strings level only.

I want study of unisons, what happens when the tuner decide to change the stabilisation delay between fundamental and the rest of the spectra; do we use any of the L modes for that.

Difficult to have a setup that will play the notes "musically" and with similar energy each time but I believe it is possible just with mass and height, and may be some smooth material to simulate the amortizing done by the pianist.

I also wish to analyse those "self crunching" unisons I hear regularely, they are may be good for all percussive music but leave no much options to make the tone sing, as it saturates too much before getting quiet.

Greetings
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#2029909 - 02/09/13 01:53 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Jake Jackson]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
Oleg and all:

For analysis, do not forget Spear, the program created by Michael Klingbeil. Its graphics are not striking, but it lets you see partials and their amplitudes shift in time, displaying them as lines running across the screen. Since it allows you to then synthesize the note into sine waves and broken into moveable nodes, you can, within the program, silence a partial or several partials, change their relative amplitudes, or change their pitch at specific moments in time to hear the result: http://www.klingbeil.com/spear/

Note that for the best accuracy, one can calibrate the lowest amplitude it will register. As in all similar programs, the better the recording, and thus the less noise\hiss\hum, the better the result.



Thank you , strange display, I will see if I can get some new information from there.

I am surprised that I had yet enough with real time display , even using a MP3 file.
I suppose that by evidence the recording is very low quality, but what the signal shows is heard at the same time, that make it accessible for a tuner .

DO you believe those USB acquisition (sound) cards are worth the money ? (I mean Roland something , about 220 USD)
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#2029965 - 02/09/13 04:16 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hi, Oleg. A good 24 bit or higher external sound card\box should be good. As you know, the higher the bit rate and the sampling rate, the better. Less averaging and shifting of pitches. I don't know about using an mp3 for serious testing. I don't know the exact coding, but even if it sounds good, there will be losses and summing and averaging, shifting some freqs and amplitudes.

I think and hope that Spear would be an excellent tool for examining the unisons, since it lets you see the timeline of changes to the frequency and amplitude of each partial, instead of showing a freeze-frame, an average, or an animation. You can also zoom in on a specific time to see small changes in freq and amplitude. (Did you see that you can click on each line to see its freq at any point in time? Did you find how to "re-synthesize" the sound in Spear? That opens up some of its real strengths. But as the site says, some inaccuracies can slip in. It's important to listen to the synthesis.)

You mention wanting to see how longitudinal waves change when "the tuner decides to change the stabilisation delay between fundamental and the rest of the spectra." Is this what happens--a delay in the coupling--when unisons are intentionally pitched slightly different from the center string? If so, is there a general principle at work? The higher the unison goes, within obvious boundaries, the longer the delay in coupling? Are there variations, such as staggering the pitching of the two unisons so that neither is at pitch with the center string and they are also not at the same pitch? Ideally, can you determine if there are precise results? In other words, does a single step in off-pitching result in a predictable delay in coupling? X=Y? I know we've discussed this before, but I have not clearly understood that the intention was to delay the stabilization, which I'm calling coupling. Which may not be exactly what you mean.

In any case, if you work with Spear or the other good programs, I hope you will post or publish what you find, both in relation to the contribution of longitudinal waves and in relation to what happens in general with off-pitched unisons.

But we are wandering from the immediate subject of which piano wire to use. My apologies. But an analysis of the same note played on different wires, tuned by the same tuner, and struck with the same hammers at the same velocity, etc, might reveal something about the difference in wires. Or has this experiment already been done?


Edited by Jake Jackson (02/09/13 10:06 PM)

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#2030075 - 02/09/13 08:38 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Jake Jackson]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1868
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The tonal change when switching out hard carbon wire for "softer wire" has been verified aurally by many independent workers. Of course we could all be under a mass illusion. Taking pictures of the difference is very useful no doubt though.

As far as manipulating the L-mode when tuning-I have never been able to do this knowingly. The pitch of the L-modes changes so little compared to the tuning of the T-modes as to be essentially non-existent. Changing the absolute pitch level of the piano can bring some L-modes and T-modes into a different consonance than exists at the previous pitch. I think the only difference unison tuning/phasing/coupling can have on L-mode is to change the resultant bridge vectors in a way that reduces/increases L-mode reinforcement/creation at the bridge.
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#2030080 - 02/09/13 08:47 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5174
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
DO you believe those USB acquisition (sound) cards are worth the money ? (I mean Roland something , about 220 USD)

Well, you need something. The Roland Quad Capture is one of the sound cards recommended by SpectraPLUS. It's USB-powered and supplies phantom power to the mics.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2030119 - 02/09/13 10:01 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
No, no. I did not mean to question if the different wires create a different timbre\partial structure. I was only talking about quantifying how the different factors discussed above (the break point, etc, and changes in the unisons, getting off-subject) contribute to the partial structure.


Edited by Jake Jackson (02/09/13 10:02 PM)

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#2030268 - 02/10/13 05:02 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Hi thank you Jake for the ideas.

We know that we have a tone change when we use new strings, and one when we change the wire quality, or provider, or tensile strain.

When tuning I listen for a very fast and dynamic effect that is obtained with a particular coupling. There are so many parameters that it is not easy to take one and say it is the major one but it should be examined.

Ian send us links in another thread to recent investigations that tend to show that the Lmodes are used a s a Vector and a reserve of energy if I understand well.

What is called "wire solicitation" could well change the behavior of the L modes, by providing them a different media quality.
In any piano we obtain tone clearing and reinforcing with manipulations at the bends, the coils, with the way we "harden" the tuning pin.

At the same time there is a definite spectra change, less "free" partials ringing, everything begin to be well policed.


exerps from Ian post :
Professor David R Rowland, an Australian, has come up with the formulae. These abstracts summarise his conclusions.

http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/32/6/003
"The question of the correct formula for the potential energy density in transverse waves on a taut string continues to attract attention ... the longitudinal motion of elements of the string needs to be taken into account, even though such motion can be neglected when deriving the linear transverse wave equation ..."

http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/2/225
"Introductory discussions of energy transport due to transverse waves on taut strings universally assume that the effects of longitudinal motion can be neglected, but this assumption is not even approximately valid ..."

I could not see the documents they are sold and not cheap, if someone have access I would like to know more on that if possible...


Edited by Olek (02/10/13 05:44 AM)
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#2030272 - 02/10/13 05:29 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
The tonal change when switching out hard carbon wire for "softer wire" has been verified aurally by many independent workers. Of course we could all be under a mass illusion. Taking pictures of the difference is very useful no doubt though.

As far as manipulating the L-mode when tuning-I have never been able to do this knowingly. The pitch of the L-modes changes so little compared to the tuning of the T-modes as to be essentially non-existent. Changing the absolute pitch level of the piano can bring some L-modes and T-modes into a different consonance than exists at the previous pitch. I think the only difference unison tuning/phasing/coupling can have on L-mode is to change the resultant bridge vectors in a way that reduces/increases L-mode reinforcement/creation at the bridge.


Hello , what do you mean with switching from hard carbon to softer ? do you mean recently, or changing from old hard types of wire for less hard as it could be done when using standard modern wire probably on some pianos of the late 19th.
(or simply from Mapes to Roslau, in some case)
No one made specrta analysis of those changes ?
It is so simple to realize . the time series show how the spectra evolve differently, if the Lmodes play a large role in energy conservation that should make sense with what I have noticed .


For the Lmode if we had a good theory on their activity we could try to check it on experiments

Then, I dont know if my unison tuning is trying to brake the coupling or to fasten it wink

My primal theory is that there are enough inconsistency in the iH to allow for reinforcing /coupling at one level or another, but if I do only that, I dont find all the energy regulation I am used too. As said ALfredo, quality may regulate the quantity, but in the end you can at any time lower the "quality (number of partials coupling) for the lower, at the benefit of quantity (more fundamental at the attack) by playing very strong and tuning with immediateness.

This will please many Jazz and percussive players.

but not possible with soft wire in my experience, the high partials are always reinforcing in larger quantity than fundamental (unless little tension is used, then the iH raise seem to allow a little thickening of fundamental)

Older qualities of soft wire when we listen to them are hardened and modified, and I tend to appreciate some part of their spectra and behavior I never find in our modern wire.

One of the theory is that it relate to the phosphorous traces in the metal. I have been described such a wire.

"You install the new wire, bring it to pitch, and it tones almost immediately, while keeping the pitch"

That wire is said to be less resistive to breaking , but I have seen it used with a high level of yeld stretch (?)

THe Suziki wire seemed to have partly that old French wire tone quality, to my ears. But I suppose that the metallurgy of wire is using different material today than even 30 years ago...
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#2030343 - 02/10/13 09:09 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Jake, that "SPEAR" program (free) is exactly what allow to analyse my samples,

It is amazing , really oriented sound analysis , with all time and frequencies related controls.


I have a half step rise or a little less (sometime the opposite but generally sharp, at the attack time.

The straightening and reinforcing of the second partial is clearly apparent, I used the original wav file, however

I like the option to listen only to a range of partials

the screen miss a little contrast but it is really interesting .

I like to find correlations, but I am afraid I cannot really understand how to chase for them.

Thank you again for pointing this

I believe the L modes are visible, as some "phantom partials" but due to resonances from other strings it is not easy to be certain of their origin. If I could have some spreadsheet to compute the quadratic partials based on original frequencies and original Lmode, that may help me to point look at the good frequency ranges





Edited by Olek (02/10/13 09:12 AM)
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#2030406 - 02/10/13 11:17 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Jake, that "SPEAR" program (free) is exactly what allow to analyse my samples,...I like to find correlations, but I am afraid I cannot really understand how to chase for them.


I may not understand. You could record the same note again and again on the same piano, and just change the one variable--the unison offsets for each recording, and then compare the wave files in Spear to see if there is a corresponding change in the time of the stabilzation\coupling? In other words, you would create a wave of the unisons at near perfect unison pitch,and then with them at .5 cents off, and then another with 1 cent off, etc and see if Spear revealed an X=Y correlation. But I know your work well enough to know that I don't have to explain what an experiment is to you--I'm probably not understanding your hesitation.

But seeing the timelines for each partial can be a little staggering and tricky, since you must compare each result by eye. One thing that might help, assuming that you have a way to control the velocity of each strike so that each recording keeps that variable regular:

Use a screen-capture program to take a snapshot of each Spear result and then print them onto transparencies so that you can overlay the results and see the changes more easily. In other words, capture them, paste them into Word, and then print them onto transparencies (the clear plastic sheets that US office supply stores sell for about ten US cents each, I think) using a laser printer.

Did you see, as well, that with File\Export, one can save the results as a text file? Not as a spreadhsheet file, unfortunately, but one can add codes to the text file and then import it into Excel for a more deliberate analysis.

I believe that, after capturing the Spear results, since they are saved as a graphic file, you can also just open them in a program that lets you make each image semitransparent to varying degrees, and thus stack several of the images together without printing. And then post the combined images for us and others to see, yes? But I do not know graphics programs well. Can someone else step in here to offer a suggestion?

Again, however, I have helped to veer from the original topic. A set of transparencies showing the results of different piano wires would be more on point.


Edited by Jake Jackson (02/10/13 11:20 AM)

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#2030472 - 02/10/13 12:43 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1868
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Olek;
I use the term "softer" in a generic way to mean the slower-cooled high-carbon steel like Paulelo O, I, II and Puresound stainless. I don't mean the difference between any work-hardening that used wire exhibits compared to new.

I am having trouble understanding what you refer to with the L-mode and unison tuning. (Of course your English is far superior to my French so please take no offense regarding your word usage context). You seem to be saying that the pitch of the L-modes can be altered during T-mode tuning. I don't think that can happen. I have always had the impression that any pitch "bending/blending" when tuning unisons is primarily at the fundamental T-mode.

The lowest two octaves or so of the compass have the greatest unison coupling window to my ear. I seem to notice that what little fundamental is present is significantly increased by unison coupling.

We do need to organize an independent test of all the piano wire types now available to establish Young's Modulus, Breaking point, elastic limit, and L-mode frequency and relative amplitude between the most similar wire sizes.

I have been trying to interest the PTG Foundation to fund this work.
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#2030575 - 02/10/13 02:59 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Olek;
I use the term "softer" in a generic way to mean the slower-cooled high-carbon steel like Paulelo O, I, II and Puresound stainless. I don't mean the difference between any work-hardening that used wire exhibits compared to new.

I am having trouble understanding what you refer to with the L-mode and unison tuning. (Of course your English is far superior to my French so please take no offense regarding your word usage context). You seem to be saying that the pitch of the L-modes can be altered during T-mode tuning. I don't think that can happen. I have always had the impression that any pitch "bending/blending" when tuning unisons is primarily at the fundamental T-mode.

The lowest two octaves or so of the compass have the greatest unison coupling window to my ear. I seem to notice that what little fundamental is present is significantly increased by unison coupling.

We do need to organize an independent test of all the piano wire types now available to establish Young's Modulus, Breaking point, elastic limit, and L-mode frequency and relative amplitude between the most similar wire sizes.

I have been trying to interest the PTG Foundation to fund this work.


Those tests should be interesting. I only wish to understand better how we interact with L-modes while tuning unisons (if we do) I know they cannot be tuned as such

Are they difficult frequencies to compute ? I wish to find a spreadsheet allowing that (unless I dont have enough parameters to enter) So when I see some strange partials in the display I can be sure they are L modes, or phantom partials (I have a nice Pan flute effect sometime)

About the wire, I thought hardness was related to carbon content, hence more hardness for Mapes than Paulello, there are different steel qualities if I understand well (plus different way to treat them indeed)

If cooking the wire would suffice to produce a soft wire we would be using the process yet (all tests provided awful sounding and unuseable wire, without enough strain resistance)

Dumb question : is the MOE different between different steel wire due to different metal quality, or does the process also play a role ?

Thank you for the comments : I know my English is limited , I do my best wink

I listened to the higher partials in my unison record, that is interesting some partials have a very neat and long sustain, some others appears just for some time then back , and some seem to have nothing to do there !
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#2030815 - 02/10/13 09:47 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Olek]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1868
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Piano wire from Mapes is annealed by quenching in oil as it comes out of the dies. This is what I think they described to me. I assume that Mapes, Paulello, Suzuki and Roslau all have the same ratio of Carbon to Iron. It is the heat from drawing and the quench rate that leaves the wire with a hard skin around a softer core. Sort of like a Katana.
If we try to anneal in an oven we won't get the difference between outer and inner hardness.
I can't answer the Dumb question either but it seems like a smart one to me. I'll look up MOE info and see what I find.
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#2030859 - 02/10/13 11:57 PM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21259
Loc: Oakland
Annealing steel is done by heating steel and letting it cool slowly. Quenching heated steel will harden it.
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#2030950 - 02/11/13 06:14 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
As I recall the description, the wire hardens during annealing because it is draw in holes more and more thin, that creates heat, I dont know if it is immediately put in an oil bath, but at some point it is too hard and need to be passed thru a heat bath (lead bath?) so it is ductile again, then the more passes in the drawing machine after a cooking bath the more the wire harden (on the external, as Ed said)

So depending of the speed of the passes, the number of passes and the number of baths the final wire is more or less hard. (that is the explantions I was given)

Drawing more slowly may anneal less, or allow to have less cooking baths. I have to check the documents.

Oil is used to lube during drawing, I was not aware it could be done in a later state of cooling, but possibly.

I thought that Mapes wire have different qualities, some with a higher carbon content hence more resistance.

the chemical composition of the steel used may vary alittle between Paulello, Mapes, Suzuki and Roslau.

the process is born in 1836 or 37 : Steel wire for music strings, patented and cold drawn. (I believe that patented is the name for the lead baths)



Edited by Olek (02/11/13 06:37 AM)
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#2030952 - 02/11/13 06:28 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Craig Hair]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7177
Loc: France
Standard SS1774-04 EN 10270-1-SM DIN 17223 B T Standard spring steel wire.

SS1774-05 EN 10270-1-SH DIN 17223 C T Music wire.

SS1774-06 EN 10270-1-DH DIN 17223 D T Piano wire with increased tensile strength.

The "oil hardened" wire is another category, by international standards.

MOE seem to be the same for all the kind of piano wire , as the chemical composition, on that site :
(they sell phosphore bronze wire and stainless wires as well)

http://catalog.lesjoforsab.com/pdf/en/chapters/210-211_EN.pdf



Edited by Olek (02/11/13 06:36 AM)
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#2220322 - 01/25/14 12:21 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 465
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Roy123
The difference in using Pure Sound stainless, Type O and Type I wire in the foreshortened plain tri-chords, and in the lowest single and bi-chord wounds as core, verses using fully modern wire is readily heard. The only logical explanation is the difference in how these softer wires propagate and sustain Longitudinal mode. James Ellis's work on L-modes shows lower frequency and amplitude of L-mode in the stainless wire he tested. Paulello's wire was not available then.

I have an article titled "Hybrid Wire Scales" to be published in the PTG Journal sometime after my coming March article titled "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale". There are several Tech's working on these protocols in the US now and for some time in europe. They beat us there. Paulello has done some amazing work.

I tried some 25 years ago the get Mapes to soft anneal select sizes of wire to do some work along these lines-although my thinking at the time was that the inharmonicity would be lower. I seem to be mostly wrong on that prediction. Evidence now shows that L-mode is a more significant source of objectionable sounds than inharmonicity in the piano than previously thought.


Greetings Mr. McMorrow-

Would you please email to me a reprint of your article "Hybrid Wire Scales" discussed above, if it has come out.

(the gmail address is in the 'view profile')

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Hndel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2221831 - 01/28/14 10:51 AM Re: The right wire for late 19th century grands [Re: phacke]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 465
Loc: CO, USA
This is received. Thank you very much, Mr. McMorrow.
Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Hndel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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