Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum The right wire for late 19th century grands

Thank you , strange display, I will see if I can get some new information from there.

I am surprised that I had yet enough with real time display , even using a MP3 file.
I suppose that by evidence the recording is very low quality, but what the signal shows is heard at the same time, that make it accessible for a tuner .

DO you believe those USB acquisition (sound) cards are worth the money ? (I mean Roland something , about 220 USD)

Hi, Oleg. A good 24 bit or higher external sound card\box should be good. As you know, the higher the bit rate and the sampling rate, the better. Less averaging and shifting of pitches. I don't know about using an mp3 for serious testing. I don't know the exact coding, but even if it sounds good, there will be losses and summing and averaging, shifting some freqs and amplitudes.

I think and hope that Spear would be an excellent tool for examining the unisons, since it lets you see the timeline of changes to the frequency and amplitude of each partial, instead of showing a freeze-frame, an average, or an animation. You can also zoom in on a specific time to see small changes in freq and amplitude. (Did you see that you can click on each line to see its freq at any point in time? Did you find how to "re-synthesize" the sound in Spear? That opens up some of its real strengths. But as the site says, some inaccuracies can slip in. It's important to listen to the synthesis.)

You mention wanting to see how longitudinal waves change when "the tuner decides to change the stabilisation delay between fundamental and the rest of the spectra." Is this what happens--a delay in the coupling--when unisons are intentionally pitched slightly different from the center string? If so, is there a general principle at work? The higher the unison goes, within obvious boundaries, the longer the delay in coupling? Are there variations, such as staggering the pitching of the two unisons so that neither is at pitch with the center string and they are also not at the same pitch? Ideally, can you determine if there are precise results? In other words, does a single step in off-pitching result in a predictable delay in coupling? X=Y? I know we've discussed this before, but I have not clearly understood that the intention was to delay the stabilization, which I'm calling coupling. Which may not be exactly what you mean.

In any case, if you work with Spear or the other good programs, I hope you will post or publish what you find, both in relation to the contribution of longitudinal waves and in relation to what happens in general with off-pitched unisons.

But we are wandering from the immediate subject of which piano wire to use. My apologies. But an analysis of the same note played on different wires, tuned by the same tuner, and struck with the same hammers at the same velocity, etc, might reveal something about the difference in wires. Or has this experiment already been done?

The tonal change when switching out hard carbon wire for "softer wire" has been verified aurally by many independent workers. Of course we could all be under a mass illusion. Taking pictures of the difference is very useful no doubt though.

As far as manipulating the L-mode when tuning-I have never been able to do this knowingly. The pitch of the L-modes changes so little compared to the tuning of the T-modes as to be essentially non-existent. Changing the absolute pitch level of the piano can bring some L-modes and T-modes into a different consonance than exists at the previous pitch. I think the only difference unison tuning/phasing/coupling can have on L-mode is to change the resultant bridge vectors in a way that reduces/increases L-mode reinforcement/creation at the bridge.

Well, you need something. The Roland Quad Capture is one of the sound cards recommended by SpectraPLUS. It's USB-powered and supplies phantom power to the mics.

ddf

No, no. I did not mean to question if the different wires create a different timbre\partial structure. I was only talking about quantifying how the different factors discussed above (the break point, etc, and changes in the unisons, getting off-subject) contribute to the partial structure.

Hi thank you Jake for the ideas.

We know that we have a tone change when we use new strings, and one when we change the wire quality, or provider, or tensile strain.

When tuning I listen for a very fast and dynamic effect that is obtained with a particular coupling. There are so many parameters that it is not easy to take one and say it is the major one but it should be examined.

Ian send us links in another thread to recent investigations that tend to show that the Lmodes are used a s a Vector and a reserve of energy if I understand well.

What is called "wire solicitation" could well change the behavior of the L modes, by providing them a different media quality.
In any piano we obtain tone clearing and reinforcing with manipulations at the bends, the coils, with the way we "harden" the tuning pin.

At the same time there is a definite spectra change, less "free" partials ringing, everything begin to be well policed.


exerps from Ian post :
Professor David R Rowland, an Australian, has come up with the formulae. These abstracts summarise his conclusions.

http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/32/6/003
"The question of the correct formula for the potential energy density in transverse waves on a taut string continues to attract attention ... the longitudinal motion of elements of the string needs to be taken into account, even though such motion can be neglected when deriving the linear transverse wave equation ..."

http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/34/2/225
"Introductory discussions of energy transport due to transverse waves on taut strings universally assume that the effects of longitudinal motion can be neglected, but this assumption is not even approximately valid ..."

I could not see the documents they are sold and not cheap, if someone have access I would like to know more on that if possible...

Hello , what do you mean with switching from hard carbon to softer ? do you mean recently, or changing from old hard types of wire for less hard as it could be done when using standard modern wire probably on some pianos of the late 19th.
(or simply from Mapes to Roslau, in some case)
No one made specrta analysis of those changes ?
It is so simple to realize . the time series show how the spectra evolve differently, if the Lmodes play a large role in energy conservation that should make sense with what I have noticed .


For the Lmode if we had a good theory on their activity we could try to check it on experiments

Then, I dont know if my unison tuning is trying to brake the coupling or to fasten it

My primal theory is that there are enough inconsistency in the iH to allow for reinforcing /coupling at one level or another, but if I do only that, I dont find all the energy regulation I am used too. As said ALfredo, quality may regulate the quantity, but in the end you can at any time lower the "quality (number of partials coupling) for the lower, at the benefit of quantity (more fundamental at the attack) by playing very strong and tuning with immediateness.

This will please many Jazz and percussive players.

but not possible with soft wire in my experience, the high partials are always reinforcing in larger quantity than fundamental (unless little tension is used, then the iH raise seem to allow a little thickening of fundamental)

Older qualities of soft wire when we listen to them are hardened and modified, and I tend to appreciate some part of their spectra and behavior I never find in our modern wire.

One of the theory is that it relate to the phosphorous traces in the metal. I have been described such a wire.

"You install the new wire, bring it to pitch, and it tones almost immediately, while keeping the pitch"

That wire is said to be less resistive to breaking , but I have seen it used with a high level of yeld stretch (?)

THe Suziki wire seemed to have partly that old French wire tone quality, to my ears. But I suppose that the metallurgy of wire is using different material today than even 30 years ago...

Jake, that "SPEAR" program (free) is exactly what allow to analyse my samples,

It is amazing , really oriented sound analysis , with all time and frequencies related controls.


I have a half step rise or a little less (sometime the opposite but generally sharp, at the attack time.

The straightening and reinforcing of the second partial is clearly apparent, I used the original wav file, however

I like the option to listen only to a range of partials

the screen miss a little contrast but it is really interesting .

I like to find correlations, but I am afraid I cannot really understand how to chase for them.

Thank you again for pointing this

I believe the L modes are visible, as some "phantom partials" but due to resonances from other strings it is not easy to be certain of their origin. If I could have some spreadsheet to compute the quadratic partials based on original frequencies and original Lmode, that may help me to point look at the good frequency ranges

I may not understand. You could record the same note again and again on the same piano, and just change the one variable--the unison offsets for each recording, and then compare the wave files in Spear to see if there is a corresponding change in the time of the stabilzation\coupling? In other words, you would create a wave of the unisons at near perfect unison pitch,and then with them at .5 cents off, and then another with 1 cent off, etc and see if Spear revealed an X=Y correlation. But I know your work well enough to know that I don't have to explain what an experiment is to you--I'm probably not understanding your hesitation.

But seeing the timelines for each partial can be a little staggering and tricky, since you must compare each result by eye. One thing that might help, assuming that you have a way to control the velocity of each strike so that each recording keeps that variable regular:

Use a screen-capture program to take a snapshot of each Spear result and then print them onto transparencies so that you can overlay the results and see the changes more easily. In other words, capture them, paste them into Word, and then print them onto transparencies (the clear plastic sheets that US office supply stores sell for about ten US cents each, I think) using a laser printer.

Did you see, as well, that with File\Export, one can save the results as a text file? Not as a spreadhsheet file, unfortunately, but one can add codes to the text file and then import it into Excel for a more deliberate analysis.

I believe that, after capturing the Spear results, since they are saved as a graphic file, you can also just open them in a program that lets you make each image semitransparent to varying degrees, and thus stack several of the images together without printing. And then post the combined images for us and others to see, yes? But I do not know graphics programs well. Can someone else step in here to offer a suggestion?

Again, however, I have helped to veer from the original topic. A set of transparencies showing the results of different piano wires would be more on point.

Olek;
I use the term "softer" in a generic way to mean the slower-cooled high-carbon steel like Paulelo O, I, II and Puresound stainless. I don't mean the difference between any work-hardening that used wire exhibits compared to new.

I am having trouble understanding what you refer to with the L-mode and unison tuning. (Of course your English is far superior to my French so please take no offense regarding your word usage context). You seem to be saying that the pitch of the L-modes can be altered during T-mode tuning. I don't think that can happen. I have always had the impression that any pitch "bending/blending" when tuning unisons is primarily at the fundamental T-mode.

The lowest two octaves or so of the compass have the greatest unison coupling window to my ear. I seem to notice that what little fundamental is present is significantly increased by unison coupling.

We do need to organize an independent test of all the piano wire types now available to establish Young's Modulus, Breaking point, elastic limit, and L-mode frequency and relative amplitude between the most similar wire sizes.

I have been trying to interest the PTG Foundation to fund this work.

Those tests should be interesting. I only wish to understand better how we interact with L-modes while tuning unisons (if we do) I know they cannot be tuned as such

Are they difficult frequencies to compute ? I wish to find a spreadsheet allowing that (unless I dont have enough parameters to enter) So when I see some strange partials in the display I can be sure they are L modes, or phantom partials (I have a nice Pan flute effect sometime)

About the wire, I thought hardness was related to carbon content, hence more hardness for Mapes than Paulello, there are different steel qualities if I understand well (plus different way to treat them indeed)

If cooking the wire would suffice to produce a soft wire we would be using the process yet (all tests provided awful sounding and unuseable wire, without enough strain resistance)

Dumb question : is the MOE different between different steel wire due to different metal quality, or does the process also play a role ?

Thank you for the comments : I know my English is limited , I do my best

I listened to the higher partials in my unison record, that is interesting some partials have a very neat and long sustain, some others appears just for some time then back , and some seem to have nothing to do there !

Piano wire from Mapes is annealed by quenching in oil as it comes out of the dies. This is what I think they described to me. I assume that Mapes, Paulello, Suzuki and Roslau all have the same ratio of Carbon to Iron. It is the heat from drawing and the quench rate that leaves the wire with a hard skin around a softer core. Sort of like a Katana.
If we try to anneal in an oven we won't get the difference between outer and inner hardness.
I can't answer the Dumb question either but it seems like a smart one to me. I'll look up MOE info and see what I find.

Annealing steel is done by heating steel and letting it cool slowly. Quenching heated steel will harden it.

As I recall the description, the wire hardens during annealing because it is draw in holes more and more thin, that creates heat, I dont know if it is immediately put in an oil bath, but at some point it is too hard and need to be passed thru a heat bath (lead bath?) so it is ductile again, then the more passes in the drawing machine after a cooking bath the more the wire harden (on the external, as Ed said)

So depending of the speed of the passes, the number of passes and the number of baths the final wire is more or less hard. (that is the explantions I was given)

Drawing more slowly may anneal less, or allow to have less cooking baths. I have to check the documents.

Oil is used to lube during drawing, I was not aware it could be done in a later state of cooling, but possibly.

I thought that Mapes wire have different qualities, some with a higher carbon content hence more resistance.

the chemical composition of the steel used may vary alittle between Paulello, Mapes, Suzuki and Roslau.

the process is born in 1836 or 37 : Steel wire for music strings, patented and cold drawn. (I believe that patented is the name for the lead baths)

Standard SS1774-04 EN 10270-1-SM DIN 17223 B T Standard spring steel wire.

SS1774-05 EN 10270-1-SH DIN 17223 C T Music wire.

SS1774-06 EN 10270-1-DH DIN 17223 D T Piano wire with increased tensile strength.

The "oil hardened" wire is another category, by international standards.

MOE seem to be the same for all the kind of piano wire , as the chemical composition, on that site :
(they sell phosphore bronze wire and stainless wires as well)

http://catalog.lesjoforsab.com/pdf/en/chapters/210-211_EN.pdf

Greetings Mr. McMorrow-

Would you please email to me a reprint of your article "Hybrid Wire Scales" discussed above, if it has come out.

(the gmail address is in the 'view profile')

Best regards-

This is received. Thank you very much, Mr. McMorrow.
Best regards-