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I know the warranties are transferable so I would assume the MPA visit would be too if it hasn't already been used.

The transferable warranty is definitely good.
But, it still makes me wonder that a reasonable sale price for a new SK6 at the time of the rental is even lower than what they are asking for it now. Could it have possibly appreciated so much while being borrowed and used? Or should I try to offer price more in the 30k+ range?

Happy,
If this is any help, I purchased a new Shigeru Kawai SK-2 after shopping 2 years. I made my decision based on two things: the rich tonal quality and the precise action. IMHO the Shigeru “Millennium III Action” is superior to any of the other brands, at any price. Also something important that I had not realized at the time of purchase; within the first year of ownership I received a visit from a MPA (Master Piano Artisan). Mr. Otaki spent over 6 hours providing concert-level regulation, voicing and turning to my desires. Now the sound is even more incredible than in the showroom, even after several tunings. Once in a great while, I'll feel a slight twinge if I think about the money and how much I could have saved by buying a used Shigeru…pianos aren't cheap! However, that has been far outweighed by the near-daily pleasure I get from playing it, when I feel like it's one of the best things I did with my life, and wouldn't trade it in for anything. So here’s how I feel: spend a little more and buy the SK-5. After your MPA visit it will sound as good (or better) than the used SK-6. As far as negotiating the price: If you don ASK, you won’t GET!

Congratulations to your Kawai Shigeru - very fine piano!



Can you give an example of this?

The Shigeru action may be a very good action but in which way would it be truly 'superior' to an engineered, high quality Renner action as found in Fazioli, Hamburg Steinway, Boesendorfer and many others? What's exactly is 'missing' in those making Shigeru's action 'superior'

Repetition, touch-feel, enhanced control, stability?

I have been seriously pursuing this question for a while now appreciating answers by those who have come to this conclusion in one way or another.

Thanks in advance.

Norbert

I don't think there's any way of knowing how the SK-5 will compare to the larger model even after an MPA visit. And I don't think there would be unanimous agreement about the comparison either.

As far as spending more money that's something that I think is really a personal decision with no right or wrong answer unless a poster says that money is no issue. PW members often seem very willing to spend other people's money but suppose someone had said while you were deciding that you should really get a bigger Shigeru than the one you purchased?

Touch-feel, enhanced control and stability are all incredible. Repetition is too, apparently, but I've found other pianos just as fast. Wooden actions are simply not as nice, IMHO, unless they are tweaked, tweaked again, and then again. That being said, the MIII action in an RX piano is not the same as in the Shigeru. Whatever the MPA does, he definitely does it right.
When I owned a Shigeru I couldn't play ANY other piano except the Fazioli without wincing at the action to some degree.

Thanks James, appreciating your experiences!

Please come visit again when our new group of Sauter grands arrives in 2-3 months time.

best wishes,

Norbert

I suppose I just have a preference for the Kawai action. I had more trouble playing softly with the Sauter but it was really well controlled with the Kawais.

Still rather confused about the price of that SK6

The weight distribution and geometry is very good: Strong up weight very good when playing pp-legatos, also a very high repetition speed rate, precision it is excellent in all regards.
Well balanced actions they don't feel too light as in many high-end European pianos or heavy and work very smoothly.
One particular improvement on Kawai actions is the jack made of carbon fiber, significantly reduces the friction between the knuckle and the tip of the jack a lot better than graphite on a wood jack.

Kawai as a manufacturer has the particular advantage of having a research and development department. Over the years they have been able to re-engineer their actions and come up with vast improvements.
Another factor is that in order to get close to such a high-performance action in a European Piano requires a very large investment. In my opinion Kawai have done an excellent job in using technology to offer high quality and performance at a reasonable price. This is something the European piano makers have not been able to do or embrace.

From a Euro perspective it's never just about 'touch' also 'tone'. Ideally both being interrelated.

One should be careful with the idea that a newly introduced technologies are immediately deemed superior even when appearing first to be so.

Never forget that other companies are also thinking about and testing things - often in greater detail than is imagined.

For example German Renner has done extensive research with a large variety of highly advanced composite materials and the bonding/glueing of felt parts within center pins,etc

In the end they came to a different conclusion of things claiming their own, more traditional method was preferable to using non-wooden parts.

In the end it's not so much about "superiority" of one method/technology over the other but simply "choice" - by both manufacturer and customer.

Live and let live.

Norbert

Is it possible to explain in a little more detail but in simple terms about some of these points?

1.e.
1. What is weight distribution?
2. What makes one action geometry better than another?
3. Why is strong up weight good in playing pp legato?
4. What is a well balanced action?

Thank you

At the risk of being derided by the cognoscente of this forum, I'll give you my understanding of these terms.

Weight distribution: The weight required to depress the key is heaviest in the lowest bass note and is graduated over the entire keyboard to the top note of the piano which needs the lightest weight to depress it.

Action geometry: would refer to the action design in creating the most efficient working of the various levers involved. A longer key is a critical part of action geometry and I note that the newest range of Shigeru Kawai pianos and the Kawai GX pianos have a slightly increased key length which is advantageous.

Good strong up weight for playing pp legato: Up weight is the slight pressure you feel under your fingers when the key rises after it has been played. The up weight allows us to sense and to hear that the key has not been released and its damper has not muted the note. This awareness is critical in playing legato as the sound of the preceding note must very slightly overlap the next note played to attain a good legato.

A well-balanced action: is an action in which all the levers, weights and counter balances work harmoniously together to create a sensation of ease, smoothness and control at all levels of playing.

Kind regards,

Robert.

That sounds like a good explanation but to be honest, I have not consciously noticed myself "sensing" the things you've described and they're not things that I notice.

One can "sense" things if and when an action is properly set up, i.e. regulated by someone who's good in his trade.

Even at that point there are individual preferences by different pianists, there's no "one size fits all"

As long as much of the industry keeps selling pianos "out the door" with barely one tuning to it, it's an experience not easily found or - becoming aware of.

Dedicated dealers spend a lot of time on this, making all the difference in the end. It may even be called a "Sale"

Norbert

Yes, and often it is the negative things about a poorly produced or regulated piano action that we sense first. If the piano action feels too heavy and sluggish and even more frustrating problems like sticking keys can turn us off an instrument instantly.
Conversely, a well regulated piano action on a good piano can transcend the minutiae of those thousands of moving parts and allow the skillful player to feel a complete and perfect connection with the instrument for the transmission of musical expression.

Kind regards,

Robert.

It is still possible that someone prefers the action of one piano over another on a "general" level as may well be the case with Kawai or Shigeru.

Considering that there are dealers who sell these pianos but also offer a number of other high end European makes, the spread must indeed be there. Unless they are using Bosendorfers and Steingraebers to "up-sell" on the other ones.

It's great that consumers have so many option on market today and rightfully can feel good about whatever choice they are making.

It's much become a level playing field.

Norbert

I meant that I have actually never consciously noticed that the higher keys are actually a lighter touch and I have never though about feeling for the upweight while playing.

Anyway they said it comes with the full warranty and the MPA visit, but didn't know or say anything about the conditions it was used in and if it was tuned or not during use. We offered 35k but they've returned 40k again.

I also reread the piano book and I understand now that a fair price for a new 2010 SK6 would be around 45k, but I still think that a good conditioned used SK6 should receive more than a ~10% discount off the new price for two years of use.
I know that it may be different but I think the used Steinways value dropped about 10% per year of use for the first few anyway.

Also how would I look for technicians in my area that are impartial and have some experience with Shigerus?

The ptg.com website (registered piano technicians) can help. If you let us know roughly where you live, specific recommendations from the members of the forum can be forthcoming.

Thanks for the replies.
I'm in Utah, near the Salt Lake City area.

Try Rick Baldassin

http://www.baldassinpianos.com/

Norbert