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Sadly, no wood finish is vapor resistant. Not one of them. Heavy coats of polyester and epoxy do pretty well but to be effective they have to be applied so thick that you no longer have a working soundboard when you’re through. But of the conventional wood finishes none of them are vapor resistant. Not lacquer, not polyurethane, not varnish, not shellac, none of them. And certainly not finishing oils or the oils found in furniture polishes.

Some finish materials do better than others at least for a while but over the years they all allow water vapor to pass through. They can protect wood from a lot of things—water, soft drinks, many types of alcoholic drinks, dirt, oil, a lot of thingd—but not water vapor.

ddf

Nothing on the Net can be taken too seriously,

unless those are edited by a group of autorised people coming to an agreement (for instance on medical matters we can have an idea of the level we are at a certain time)


Each writer have its personal agenda, most often, something to sell, sometime it is only himself or nan image of himself.

Using the NEt as a source of inspiration, is full of traps

I think you should treat BOTH sides.

Treating only one side will make the two sides get humid in a different way, which will cause tensions in the wood and bending.

My comments about the vapor permeability of wood finishes (and the oils in furniture polishes) are based on my own testing while I was R&D Director at Baldwin. They are consistent with the test results of the major wood finish materials manufacturers.

The author I quoted, Bob Flexner, is a well-known (in the U.S.) custom furniture maker and refinishing expert. He has authored several well-respected and successful books on refinishing. His articles on the subject have been published in most of the major U.S. woodworking magazines including Fine Woodworking. I'm not sure you can get much more credibility than that.

ddf

Del you nor your author where not in cause, and indeed more credibility when sources are given.

But on the Net you often find fancy things, still at the experimental or inaginary state, presented ad a "new truth".

I would not take risks based on something stated, I first cross check, for that the Net is very good.

Of course no way to avoid vapor to go inside wood, unless you vacuum impregnate it .
Also some oils harden, but for how long ? They seem to be mixed with resins and powders today, for floors, wooden furniture, etc. I have a kit with dpecial sponges and 3 different oils, for floors , outside, or common.

But they are used in place of a lacquer...

It does make sense to treat both sides. Ideally, that is what I would do.

But, I am afraid of contaminating the strings and bridges. Hopefully, "IF" any oil penetrates in to the wood, it will sort of distribute itself evenly throughout the wood. I also want to do something that is easily done by the client. If this works, then maybe some sort of schedule can be set for the custodians...Use Milseks on the back of the piano on the 1st of every month, for example.

But I do agree, treating both sides would be better.

Del is correct about no wood finish being very effective against water vapour. Some may be slightly resistant but even when we studied building science as an energy advisor, the materials used as vapour barriers are all listed in rating by their "perms"....no material even in buildings is zero perms....thus they all allow a small bit of vapour through them. If a 6 mil thick poly plastic vapour barrier is rated at .05 perms, you can be assured there is no thin wood finish that will even come close to this.

Here's some information about the piano:

Kimball "Artist Console" piano
Model# 4243
Serial# D86336

Here is the tuning history from October 2005:
15 Oct 2005 Raised 40 cents to A440
26 Apr 2006 Lowered 25 cents to A440
18 Oct 2006 Changed 0 cents to A440
2 Nov 2007 Raised 15 cents to A440
8 Oct 2008 Changed 0 cents to A440
26 Jan 2010 Raised 30 cents to A440
26 Oct 2010 Lowered 17 cents to A440
28 Sep 2011 Lowered 10 cents to A440
19 Apr 2012 Raised 20 cents to A440

Today, I treated the back of the soundboard and the entire back with Milseks. I used approximately 6 fl. oz. I could have applied more, but I didn't want to do things too quickly, considering that this is the first time that back has ever been treated.

I will apply more Milseks next Friday and then tune to A440. I will be using the Representative Victorian Temperament. The A's have a 0 offset, so this particular choice of temperament should not matter much.

I went back today to tune the piano.

I applied more Milseks. The entire board and back took about one more ounce.

I also slightly snugged up the plate screws and checked to make sure the soundboard button screws/bridge screws were not loose.

The tuning is the Moore - Representative Victorian Temperament

This is how many cents the A's were off before tuning today:

A0 +3.1

A1 -9.4

A2 -6.4

A3 -13

A4 -12

A5 -9.7

A6 -8.4

A7 -4.6

Edit: I will return in about 4 weeks to measure and re-tune the piano. Then, I will come back probably at the middle or end of May to measure and re-tune the piano... After the warm weather comes in and the humidity rises.

Well Dan why not floating the pitch, I question the tuning the users are left with on those high humidity rise.
When I tuned for schools the pitch was 444 445 after summer, if I lowered it to 440 I find it a 438 Hz in winter, and anything under 440 is not accepteable.

So before looking at your cts display you may want to think about the condition of the tuning in regard to humidity of the day .

Indeed after some time you may well finish with less variations than on the beginning, but for instance lower the pitch 30 cts ?


The great idea of any lazy tuner (I believe we are all is to allow the work to be as simple and fast as possible.

Some places where I tuned pianos had a 28% HR in winter with very high temperature, dspite that I dont recall having so large pitch changes, indeed we are in a moderate climate in summer , with 65 % HR +- occasionally 70 on rainy days.

A piano have its own stability, the role of the tuner is to find it

That's worth repeating.

A piano has its own stability. The rôle of the tuner is to find it.

(and put it where a musician can use it) goes without saying.

If the piano is allowed to float, you will cut the range of pitch variation by approximately half immediately and over years of doing just this, by not continually jacking the pitch around by gross amounts, the piano will reward you by reducing its pitch variation even more all by itself.

This will also make the piano more useable by musicians more of the time with a bit less wear and tear on the piano and the tuner.

Repeat after me three times;

A piano has its own stability, the rôle of the tuner is to find it.

It's the best way I've ever heard it said.

Thanks. Isaac.

I agree that floating the pitch is best for the piano. I have asked and explained. But, I am not allowed to do so. They want it tuned at A440 every time.

It's their piano, not mine.

"Mine is not to question why..."

If only floated a relatively small amount, your clients will never know unless they use the piano with other instruments.

Joe, I understand, but let's see things differntly :

You are the professional and you know what is good for them, they don't.

So it is a better service to them in the end not to respect bad instructions, they don't know why they give them exactly, in the end. (or you have to evaluate that part too)

Only in recording studios where non numeric samples where used, or with a singer, we really have to respect a precise pitch.

All other situations, the less we move the piano the better , of course in a small pitch window.

anyway the first warming of the place will change your pitch, so I consider that the instrument is priority, on standards.

As you like experiments, you can propose them to experiment some pitch float, I believe that you will show them (as you have the data , which is excellent) in a year that it was worth the experiment.

DO you have the data for all A's (or C's) ? this may help to show them how the piano varies.

A well conducted pitch floating will reduce the range of the out of tuness from the whole scale initially, to a small few octaves place where the pitch change is more apparent.

But it goes progressively . We can count on a 5 octave zone due for "real" tuning and the rest just for tweaking, after some time (years/months, depending ...)

I sold the schools I work with cheap "tuning corrections" that could be done in 30 minutes and often less.
This allowed to "train" the piano to his "natural" tuning , not allowing the instrument to move more than the moisture/heat conditions . I did not tune for schools for some time and lately I made a tuning while the weather was warm enough, but just prior the cold (which was expected)
I did a short stretched medium range, the cold came and go, then back, and the piano did not follow enough. I will tune it again in a few days.

The pianists will accept and extreme rise of stretch, but not the opposite .

I also believe there are "consonance nodes" that helps the instrument to stop moving at some point. the physics below that escapes me unfortunately, but I am very attentive to that while tuning...

Don't let the tail wag the dog. With the finest of pianos in the most demanding of circumstances in any major music centre in the world with the most pretentious of prima donnas.... The pitch has to float and it's going to drift around whether we like it or not. the piano is no respecter of our externally imposed pitch.

It will, however, work with us if we show just a little understanding.

The float range is whatever the local standard of pitch is, plus 1Hz. sharp. Never below standard. This way, the piano will not go below pitch except for seasonal changes.
pianos are quite comfortable floating inside this range with an occasional nudge or a general raise or lower a couple of times a year. This is for Internal spaces. Some orchestras have an open air venue in the warm months. This is often 2Hz higher than local with the same float range.

I have never known difficulties wih singers unless some fool tells them but from time to time, an electronics person in a studio will specify absolute 440. The last time this happened, the frequency of tuning had to be doubled and the pitch sometimes went below standard between tunings which was intolerable for orchestral musicians using the same studio. it turned out that the problem occurred when it had been tuned by an over stretching tuner that was with us for a while.

Most tuners only tune every few months on the same piano and are surprised at the between tunings vagaries when it is seen more often.

With you seeing the piano more often now, you are in charge so try a float. It can't be that fine but you can get away with 442. I have, when circumstances dictated. our standard is 440 but most of the musicians here work internationally so it's easier here.

We're all here supporting you so you won't have to float alone.

I agree with everything that has been said on floating the pitch. Rxd, i really do appreciate "not having to float alone." LOL!

The arguments I receive (paraphrased) for tuning each time to A440 are:

1) "I have students here with perfect pitch. I know the piano will drift. But, I want it at A440 so they know the piano is correct immediately after tuning."

2a) "I want the piano tuned to A440 close to the concert date. I will be using other instruments with the piano. Let the piano drift from A440 after the concert."

Or...
2b) "I will be using the piano for rehearsal, and a keyboard on the actual stage. Let the rehearsal piano drift from A440 after the concert."

Edit: Basically, everything seems to be directed towards the concert dates for Fall concert and then the Spring concert, unless the piano has gone so far out that it's unusable. Then, the tuning schedule may vary a bit.

Edit: Btw, I have been chasing the pitch on this particular Kimball for many years. The tuning pins are still ridiculously tight... but that's a Kimball.

Glad you enjoyed my last line, Joe. That particular double entendre only works on your side of the pond.

Yes, those 'reasons' are the usual imaginative self defeating notions that the average dilettante has about pitch.

I just thought that, since you are volunteering your time, you could show them how they could have a musically useable piano for much much more of the school year.

Don't even try to explain what you are doing, it only serves to confuse fixed notions. Students should be given the same conditions that are given to professionals.

Educate them and their teachers by guiding them to slowly realise things, as if all by themselves.

What Isaac, myself and others describe is the way that has been agreed on over the years between professional musicians and concert tuning departments all over the world in order to deal with an age old problem.

When I talk about the good of the piano, in this context, I refer only to it's stability and our duty to find it.

Yes, that really is the best way. Help them realize it on their own. Very wise advice. Thank you

For the time being though, I'll complete this initial experiment and see where it goes... if anywhere. If pitch stability seems to improve, then maybe I can continue without rocking any boats. If not, then I can try gently approaching them and seeing if they would like to "experiment" with floating the pitch.

But, I'm only able to do so many freebees. Whether or not they float the pitch, or have me chase the pitch, I start charging again after this particular experiment is over.

Thanks, Joe, I understand that and I heartily applaud all those who do pro bono work. While none of us do it for reward, it has a funny old way of giving a greater return, sometimes 20 years later. This is not metaphysical, but simply the result of a giving nature. (although at one point, I began to suspect that you just might have shares in Milsek. But that betrays a hopefully small part of my nature).

Just while it's on my mind, I woke up this morning to a light dusting of snow. I had intended to go into my conservatoire real early this morning because I had noticed some pianos losing pitch.

Has anybody noticed that a heavy rainstorm might not affect the pitch of a piano much but even a light dusting of snow will immediately result in a slight raise in pitch? Or have I become the complete piano geek and really lost it?

Anyway, I decided that a another day of this will reduce my workload and stayed home letting the weather do my grunt work for me.

I did, however have a 9 o'clock tuning on a 9' that I have been tuning all week and presiding over a gradual loss of pitch. Yesterday, I noticed the pitch on 440.1 and fully expected to have to raise at least the middle this morning but the snow came and boosted the pitch to 440.35 leaving a few adjustments mainly around the breaks in the treble and a leisurely infinitesimal lowering the last octave of long steels and some of the covered strings.

I could slip my lever back in my pocket and walk away from an exemplary tuning in under 20 minutes.