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#2025956 - 02/02/13 04:05 PM Metronome and scales
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
I am working on Mozart's sonata 545

Using the piano's metronome has really helped. The problem is that most of the music here is 16th notes.

Playing a 16th note for each beat is no problem. But playing two or four notes for each beat is much more difficult. I find myself changing the beat when trying to do this.

Any thoughts?

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#2025995 - 02/02/13 06:03 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Maybe you can try practicing at a slower tempo.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2026015 - 02/02/13 07:19 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18014
Loc: Victoria, BC
Perhaps it's the notes themselves in the scale passages that are giving you the problem.

You should be able to do the following :

Slowly tap your left hand on a table and count, evenly and out loud : 1, 2, 3, 4; 1, 2, 3, 4, letting the left hand tap the table only on 1.

Now do the same thing, but this time :
both hands together on 1, and let the right hand continue to tap on 2, 3, and 4.

Your left hand is now your "metronome" setting the beat, and the right hand is "playing" continuous sixteenth-notes,

Now, using that same tempo set your metronome to match the beat of your left hand, and play the right hand only scale passages, four sixteenth notes to each beat. Play it as slowly as you must to get four even notes to each beat.

This is something you must master as soon as possible. You will never get any sense of the rhythm and the forward movement of this piece if you set your metronome to click on each sixteenth-note.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2026094 - 02/02/13 11:21 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
Bluoh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 421
Loc: Canada
I have a neat trick called "chunking".

(I also share other easy psychology tricks on my blog.)

To "test" yourself, play as fast as you can while maintaining even notes, with the strong counts emphasized.

That's your baseline speed; that's where you start.

Now, you set the metronome to that speed and work on notes between two strong counts, making those even.

For example:
1 2 3 4 1
C D E F G

When those are even, you move on to the next set of notes.

This shouldn't take very long (relative to what you've been doing).

When that's alright, you can adjust the metronome. smile

Eventually, getting rid of the accents (it's a piece of cake when your notes are all even).

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#2026171 - 02/03/13 04:15 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Double the tempo of the metronome so it is clicking half beats

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#2026187 - 02/03/13 05:15 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: debrucey]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Double the tempo of the metronome so it is clicking half beats


... or buy a metronome designed for 230 VAC and plug it into 115 VAC ... wait, that won't work. Never mind.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#2026486 - 02/03/13 06:55 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: Bluoh]
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
Originally Posted By: Bluoh
I have a neat trick called "chunking".

(I also share other easy psychology tricks on my blog.)

To "test" yourself, play as fast as you can while maintaining even notes, with the strong counts emphasized.

That's your baseline speed; that's where you start.

Now, you set the metronome to that speed and work on notes between two strong counts, making those even.

For example:
1 2 3 4 1
C D E F G

When those are even, you move on to the next set of notes.

This shouldn't take very long (relative to what you've been doing).

When that's alright, you can adjust the metronome. smile

Eventually, getting rid of the accents (it's a piece of cake when your notes are all even).


What do you mean by strong counts?

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#2026537 - 02/03/13 09:16 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: Bluoh]
riley80 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 381
Loc: Florida
I guess I 'chunked' my way thru the choir a capella section - the altos needed some non-obvious support. Hey - I LIKE that term. I admit I have stooped to using that when the bass clef music gets ornery, especially with @$#% leaps.

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#2026551 - 02/03/13 09:48 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: riley80]
Bluoh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 421
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
Originally Posted By: Bluoh
I have a neat trick called "chunking".

To "test" yourself, play as fast as you can while maintaining even notes, with the strong counts emphasized.

That's your baseline speed; that's where you start.

Now, you set the metronome to that speed and work on notes between two strong counts, making those even.

For example:
1 2 3 4 1
C D E F G

When those are even, you move on to the next set of notes.

This shouldn't take very long (relative to what you've been doing).

When that's alright, you can adjust the metronome. smile

Eventually, getting rid of the accents (it's a piece of cake when your notes are all even).


What do you mean by strong counts?


It depends on your music and how you're setting you're metronome.

If you're playing 4 sixteenths for every metronome beat, then beat 1 would be your strong count (assuming you go |1|-2-3-4 |1|-2-3-4). That's your chunk.

So it really depends on how you're playing it and how big you want your chunks to be.

Originally Posted By: riley80
I guess I 'chunked' my way thru the choir a capella section - the altos needed some non-obvious support. Hey - I LIKE that term. I admit I have stooped to using that when the bass clef music gets ornery, especially with @$#% leaps.


Haha, you're welcome to keep using it.

I named it chunking because it puts the music in easy chunks, like in design psychology.

People remember things in chunks. Things like phone numbers is in a chunk of 3-4.

The idea is to make it as easy to remember as a phone number. smile

[EDIT]
If you're wondering (or if you messaged me): I share my other useful tricks here (click here to go).

I also have a free email list where I share my Insider tips.


Edited by Bluoh (02/03/13 09:50 PM)

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#2027161 - 02/04/13 10:40 PM Metronome and scales [Re: Dave Horne]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Double the tempo of the metronome so it is clicking half beats


... or buy a metronome designed for 230 VAC and plug it into 115 VAC ... wait, that won't work. Never mind.

I think you are onto something there, Dave. Or try this:
Set the metronome to click 64th notes, and then articulate on every fourth. It feels like you are playing slowly! Or, set the metronome for triplets in compound time, and then . . .
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2031538 - 02/11/13 11:26 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
How did Mozart keep the time without a metronome. I understand that metronomes were not yet invented for him.

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#2031559 - 02/11/13 11:59 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18014
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
How did Mozart keep the time without a metronome. I understand that metronomes were not yet invented for him.


He kept time ... without a metronome!

Just about anyone can develop a sense of timing, whether, initially, it's by tapping the foot or by nodding the head. One has to learn to listen closely, making sure that the tempo is even. You don't need a metronome to do that, but it can help.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2031588 - 02/12/13 12:52 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5483
Loc: Orange County, CA
If you want to play K. 545, you need to be able to subdivide beats!
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2031668 - 02/12/13 06:56 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7838
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
How did Mozart keep the time without a metronome. I understand that metronomes were not yet invented for him.


How did people know when to eat lunch, before clocks were invented?

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#2031673 - 02/12/13 07:04 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
In addition to subdividing which is actually the most important and effective thing you can do, I learned over the years that having more technique than you need helps tremendously to keep your time honest and accurate.

When I was younger and possessed less technique I would rush the tempo terribly. If I now record myself and listen back, I still have a tendency to raise the tempo a few markings but it's still entirely acceptable (at least to my ears).

Having the clicks from the metronome represent the weak beats of the measure forces you to supply the strong beats. It's not as easy as you think and I advise everyone to give it a try.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#2031749 - 02/12/13 10:31 AM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
This is how I do it

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#2031831 - 02/12/13 12:58 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: Dave Horne]
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
But 545 is marked 132 quarters per minute in the first movement.

How would Mozart know this without a metronome?

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#2031845 - 02/12/13 01:16 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18014
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
But 545 is marked 132 quarters per minute in the first movement.

How would Mozart know this without a metronome?


Because that is a (modern) editor's indication. Mozart did not indicate metronome markings.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2031937 - 02/12/13 03:43 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: Andromaque]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
This is how I do it



This guy could handle Mozart's rhythms. No doubt.

I know it was a snarky response, but that was really fantastic, and if you are able to internalize the pulse and syncopation to that degree, well...

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2031949 - 02/12/13 04:00 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: woodog]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Sorry it sounded that way. That was not my intent.

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#2032667 - 02/13/13 07:39 PM Re: Metronome and scales [Re: MarkAW]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
But 545 is marked 132 quarters per minute in the first movement.

How would Mozart know this without a metronome?

On this thread, are we starting to confuse the MACHiNE that serves the music, with the MUSIC itself?

It is just like wr's "when to eat lunch." Lunch told the inventors of the clock when it was noon - not the other way around. Once we had the clock, then it was convenient for musicians to think in terms of X-beats each minute. And THEN the machine was developed, and musicians began using it as a tool - A TOOL.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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