Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum regulate and voice a drop action

Nice to see you back, Mr. Bremmer!! I was beginning to get worried.
I owe you a lot. Your explanation on how to tune by starting with the 7bps was an
eye opener. It is the simplest method I've seen and the one I can readily understand.
Funny how 7bps sounds just like what I heard in many Sci-Fi films from the 50's and
60's, LOL. Still got to replace some broken strings in my own spinet and in my 58"
New England piano.
Thank you very, very much for having been such an admirable teacher all these years
especially here in Piano World.
Respectfully, Widmark Weiss

More than that. I'm afraid my fellow countryman has misread Bill completely. Bill was, in fact, making the point that to work on spinets is the right thing to do, just like treating black people during Apartheid was the right thing to do. To find excuses for not working on spinets would be just as wrong as to find excuses for not working on Blacks.

I do, however, understand sensitivities amongst white South Africans. We are blamed for most anything these days, and there seems to be a rather unsavory method to this madness.

That being said, I don't for one moment regard Bill or his postings as divisive.

To Mark Davis:

1) Even though I never voted for the old Apartheid regime (and never will vote for the new one), I was a beneficiary of the old regime by growing up under the last decade of its reign. I tend not to blow my horn all too loudly about all the good things that Whites have done and are doing.
2) If you're serious about impending genocide, you should pack up your tuning tools and emigrate now. If you're not, you shouldn't post it here.
3) From your recent posting about "OMG", I deduce that you are a man of faith. I would encourage you (as I do myself!) to try and live by forgiveness rather than embitterment.

God bless.

I think a very, very strong case can be made for not servicing spinets (aside from normal tuning).... at least unless is is already in above average shape. The vast majority of spinets I've come across would require at least one full day of service, maybe two.

In my service area, the average rate for tuning is about $100, but some technicians charge upwards of $135 for a non-pitchraise tuning. Even for a technician who charges only $100 for a tuning, that would turn into a $400 fee for a one day service and $800 for two days. Most customers with these pianos are hesitant to even pay $150 for their pitch raise + tuning and would probably laugh me out the door if I offered to spend a whole day fixing their 70 year old George Steck spinet....

Hello Mark

Please quote Bill's comment, just the part about the white American and white South African, as I did earlier, in another post and then explain to me what you think all that talk about whites is about?

Is it true and is it right for him to just sprout this unsubstantial comment and prejudice drivel?

Thank you,

The problem is, Mr. Davis, that removing the quote from the context of the posting changes the entire point of what Mr. Bremmer was saying.

Before you take issue, you should make sure that you are able to comprehend what was written. Please develop an understanding of analogy and/or metaphore. Then return the statement to the given context.

Debate the issues of the Republic of South Africa in South Africa. This is not a political forum.

The problem is that Mr. Bremmer finds it necessary to disparage other people to promote himself. I found his post distasteful even before getting to the part about South Africa.

To say the least. GEEZE! For 30 years and more, I have read comments from supposedly the "best" technicians who have publicly stated that the would refuse to do anything that would help a spinet piano play better!

While I cannot pretend to know both sides of the story of racism in South Africa, I do know what happened in the USA. I was only drawing an analogy about the outright refusal to service a certain kind of piano and the refusal to give certain human beings basic services because of caste systems.

I am in the business of servicing pianos of whatever kind, shape, make or model. There is value in each of them that deserves to be respected.

AFAIK, no one is manufacturing spinets anymore. I wonder if, a few years down the road, spinets might become a hot novelty item because of scarcity.

I don't think anyone will argue that the old forte-pianos were superior to today's pianos. But, there is there is still enough interest to justify some technicians specializing in restoration of these instruments.

Edit: There are also all those gutted player pianos missing the player mechanisms. I remember talking to an old tech many years ago that told me he was actually taught to remove the player mechanisms and discard them to make the piano easier to service because they would have no value.

Just thinking...


--------------------------------------------------------------


Edit:

Back to the thread topic...

It might be worthwhile for Toni to work on this action for the experience. Of course, only he can be the judge of this.

There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.



There is a sizable minority that thinks fortepianos are as good or superior.... people like Malcolm Bilson, Paul Badura-Skoda, Jorg Demus, Robert Levin, etc. There are several workshops that exist not only to restore them, but to build brand spankin' new ones from scratch, and they cost A LOT of money.... like Steinway B or D money. The fact is, a properly functioning Walter, Erard, Graf, etc. can be every bit as musically fulfilling as the equivalent concert grand because they were designed to be serious musical instruments. This was never the case with spinets.

Ahem,

I don't know about the others, but Badura-Skoda is not of that opinion. His thinking and discussion of the contempory piano is not of inferiority in the least. Quite the opposite.

Hi Beethoven986,

To quote:
There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.[Emphasis added]

That's fine by me I am perfectly happy to work on spinets for folks that want to invest the money... especially if there is a demand for them.

There are plenty of techs who will work on spinets. There is a paucity of spinet owners who will pay what it costs for that work, especially if you tell them that there are better options.

As there are plenty of recordings of B-S using the modern piano, I also doubt that he considers the contemporary piano inferior, but that's not quite what I said. He also performs extensively on period instruments, and I believe he has quite a collection of period instruments, which I doubt would be the case if he found them to be lacking.

I'm perfectly happy to tune them, but I don't think I'm going to beg anyone to let me regulate one. I used to work for a tech who made spinets a large part of his business, and I'd have to regulate them, so it's not that I can't do it. It's just that 1) I'd rather be doing other things and 2) many people will opt to get a better piano, or at least start thinking about it, if prompted.

Ahem... I'm not going to "beg" anyone to let me regulate them either. I currently advise any and all of my customers whether or not their instrument is likely to have sufficient resale value to justify the investment, and whether or not they might be further ahead investing that money in another instrument. If the client is informed of the realities and decides to go ahead, I have enough respect for them to provide the service they requested.

However, there can be other considerations beyond the merely monetary, or even if the instrument is capable of becoming a masterpiece. There is sentimental value, familiarity (as was mentioned earlier in this thread), space considerations, matching furniture styling, etc.

Just because the cost of a repair might not be able to be recovered in the event of a hypothetical sale does not automatically make the repair fraudulent or inappropriate. You can spend a large sum of money on a great meal, or a vacation, and that isn't resalable either. Edit: And, the repair is made with the informed consent... informed request... of the client.

Edit: As to whether the old spinets will ever become popular, I just think about the p[layer piano. They were common and the player mechanisms we reconsidered disposable. But, see how they are viewed now.

I'll make another preposterous prediction:
The day will come when people begin to appreciate the materials and workmanship used in the old uprights. I think you will see a revival there as well.

Back to the thread...

No implication was intended. Just my own personal philosophy.

In that case, I apologize for jumping the gun.

-Joe

Well, I certainly hope Toni has learned a thing or two to this point in the thread... including the trepidation with which one must live prior to posting anything in the Tuner/Tech forum on Piano World.

My new bumper sticker says: "Threads Morph"



They don't make 'em like they used to, daniokeeper, that's for sure.

I think there are some pianos worth saving, not only as artifacts, but as "nice" pianos. Many pianos fall into this category, actually. I think a tech with good judgement could say to an owner, in good conscience, "This is a nice piano." Even if it's a spinet, or a dumpy console! Because: it can be made to be quite serviceable, given the situation. I have had two young teens, recently, express JOY at the way their pianos sounded after tuning. Both pianos were dumpy consoles with, um, issues... But a nice tuning invigorated both kids' enthusiasm for playing. Those of us who live in the "used" piano market may see things a little differently than those who work in the new...

Many things happen through piano lessons (in otherwords, "everything is over-determined,") and not everyone can afford a Fazioli or a Schimmelmeistervonheuten.

--Andy

"The problem with Spinet pianos has always been the difficulty in providing even the most basic service that is far more easily and efficiently done in virtually any other kind of piano. (Only Birdcage pianos are worse!)"

With the greatest possible diffidence and respect, bearing in mind from whom the above opinion emanates, I'd like to suggest that "only Birdcage pianos are worse" needs some qualifying!

If we are speaking of VERY old overdamper pianos, perhaps of the "cottage piano" type with spring & loop actions and vellum hinges, then, yes, perhaps. In addition to the fact that spring & loop action geometry just never makes for a nice-feeling action in my experience, it's often the case that such very old overdamper actions have terribly brittle parts that start to break as soon as you do anything.

But birdcage pianos were made as late as 1954 in the UK, and of the later ones, I don't think I can agree about the degree of difficulty. In birdcage actions, for example, it is very easy and quick to tighten both the wippen and the hammer flange screws as they are on the same side of the action rail. The damper flange screws are on the same side too, if it comes to that. And of course it's the work of only a moment to remove the action to carry out any work on it. The damping certainly doesn't work as well on such actions, though, and it's difficult to regulate the overdampers.

Best regards,

David
http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/birdcage-pianos.php

Ah,good to see that good manners is still alive in Scotland.
A Gentleman indeed.