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#2039870 - 02/26/13 09:14 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hi Beethoven986,

To quote:
There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.[Emphasis added]

That's fine by me smile I am perfectly happy to work on spinets for folks that want to invest the money... especially if there is a demand for them.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2039880 - 02/26/13 09:36 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21304
Loc: Oakland
There are plenty of techs who will work on spinets. There is a paucity of spinet owners who will pay what it costs for that work, especially if you tell them that there are better options.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2039911 - 02/26/13 11:27 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Minnesota Marty]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Ahem,

I don't know about the others, but Badura-Skoda is not of that opinion. His thinking and discussion of the contempory piano is not of inferiority in the least. Quite the opposite.


As there are plenty of recordings of B-S using the modern piano, I also doubt that he considers the contemporary piano inferior, but that's not quite what I said. He also performs extensively on period instruments, and I believe he has quite a collection of period instruments, which I doubt would be the case if he found them to be lacking.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2039913 - 02/26/13 11:32 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: daniokeeper]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Beethoven986,

To quote:
There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.[Emphasis added]

That's fine by me smile I am perfectly happy to work on spinets for folks that want to invest the money... especially if there is a demand for them.


I'm perfectly happy to tune them, but I don't think I'm going to beg anyone to let me regulate one. I used to work for a tech who made spinets a large part of his business, and I'd have to regulate them, so it's not that I can't do it. It's just that 1) I'd rather be doing other things and 2) many people will opt to get a better piano, or at least start thinking about it, if prompted.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2039918 - 02/26/13 11:51 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: beethoven986]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Beethoven986,

To quote:
There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.[Emphasis added]

That's fine by me smile I am perfectly happy to work on spinets for folks that want to invest the money... especially if there is a demand for them. [Emphasis added]


I'm perfectly happy to tune them, but I don't think I'm going to beg anyone to let me regulate one. I used to work for a tech who made spinets a large part of his business, and I'd have to regulate them, so it's not that I can't do it. It's just that 1) I'd rather be doing other things and 2) many people will opt to get a better piano, or at least start thinking about it, if prompted. [Emphasis added]


Ahem... I'm not going to "beg" anyone to let me regulate them either. I currently advise any and all of my customers whether or not their instrument is likely to have sufficient resale value to justify the investment, and whether or not they might be further ahead investing that money in another instrument. If the client is informed of the realities and decides to go ahead, I have enough respect for them to provide the service they requested.

However, there can be other considerations beyond the merely monetary, or even if the instrument is capable of becoming a masterpiece. There is sentimental value, familiarity (as was mentioned earlier in this thread), space considerations, matching furniture styling, etc.

Just because the cost of a repair might not be able to be recovered in the event of a hypothetical sale does not automatically make the repair fraudulent or inappropriate. You can spend a large sum of money on a great meal, or a vacation, and that isn't resalable either. Edit: And, the repair is made with the informed consent... informed request... of the client.

Edit: As to whether the old spinets will ever become popular, I just think about the p[layer piano. They were common and the player mechanisms we reconsidered disposable. But, see how they are viewed now.

I'll make another preposterous prediction:
The day will come when people begin to appreciate the materials and workmanship used in the old uprights. I think you will see a revival there as well.

Back to the thread...


Edited by daniokeeper (02/27/13 12:03 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2039920 - 02/26/13 11:59 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: daniokeeper]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Beethoven986,

To quote:
There are hundreds of thousands of these things in the US, and 50 years from now, most of them will probably still be around. That said, I don't think they will be scarce for a long time. If anything, they will become a novelty among the hipster crowd.[Emphasis added]

That's fine by me smile I am perfectly happy to work on spinets for folks that want to invest the money... especially if there is a demand for them. [Emphasis added]


I'm perfectly happy to tune them, but I don't think I'm going to beg anyone to let me regulate one. I used to work for a tech who made spinets a large part of his business, and I'd have to regulate them, so it's not that I can't do it. It's just that 1) I'd rather be doing other things and 2) many people will opt to get a better piano, or at least start thinking about it, if prompted. [Emphasis added]


Ahem... I'm not going to "beg" anyone to let me regulate them either.... Just because the cost of a repair might not be able to be recovered in the event of a hypothetical sale does not automatically make the repair fraudulent or inappropriate.


No implication was intended. Just my own personal philosophy.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2039923 - 02/27/13 12:16 AM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: beethoven986]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Quote:

No implication was intended. Just my own personal philosophy.

In that case, I apologize for jumping the gun. smile

-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2039942 - 02/27/13 01:23 AM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: daniokeeper]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Well, I certainly hope Toni has learned a thing or two to this point in the thread... including the trepidation with which one must live prior to posting anything in the Tuner/Tech forum on Piano World.

My new bumper sticker says: "Threads Morph"

Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
[...] The day will come when people begin to appreciate the materials and workmanship used in the old uprights. I think you will see a revival there as well. [...]


They don't make 'em like they used to, daniokeeper, that's for sure.

I think there are some pianos worth saving, not only as artifacts, but as "nice" pianos. Many pianos fall into this category, actually. I think a tech with good judgement could say to an owner, in good conscience, "This is a nice piano." Even if it's a spinet, or a dumpy console! Because: it can be made to be quite serviceable, given the situation. I have had two young teens, recently, express JOY at the way their pianos sounded after tuning. Both pianos were dumpy consoles with, um, issues... But a nice tuning invigorated both kids' enthusiasm for playing. Those of us who live in the "used" piano market may see things a little differently than those who work in the new...

Many things happen through piano lessons (in otherwords, "everything is over-determined,") and not everyone can afford a Fazioli or a Schimmelmeistervonheuten.

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2040103 - 02/27/13 11:42 AM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
"The problem with Spinet pianos has always been the difficulty in providing even the most basic service that is far more easily and efficiently done in virtually any other kind of piano. (Only Birdcage pianos are worse!)"

With the greatest possible diffidence and respect, bearing in mind from whom the above opinion emanates, I'd like to suggest that "only Birdcage pianos are worse" needs some qualifying!

If we are speaking of VERY old overdamper pianos, perhaps of the "cottage piano" type with spring & loop actions and vellum hinges, then, yes, perhaps. In addition to the fact that spring & loop action geometry just never makes for a nice-feeling action in my experience, it's often the case that such very old overdamper actions have terribly brittle parts that start to break as soon as you do anything.

But birdcage pianos were made as late as 1954 in the UK, and of the later ones, I don't think I can agree about the degree of difficulty. In birdcage actions, for example, it is very easy and quick to tighten both the wippen and the hammer flange screws as they are on the same side of the action rail. The damper flange screws are on the same side too, if it comes to that. And of course it's the work of only a moment to remove the action to carry out any work on it. The damping certainly doesn't work as well on such actions, though, and it's difficult to regulate the overdampers.

Best regards,

David
http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/birdcage-pianos.php




Edited by David Boyce (02/27/13 11:47 AM)

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#2040249 - 02/27/13 03:32 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: David Boyce]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 119
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Ah,good to see that good manners is still alive in Scotland.
A Gentleman indeed.

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#2040285 - 02/27/13 04:35 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Why thank you Herr Weiss! One does one's poor best! (Shuffles feet and looks shyly up from eyes modestly downcast....)

P.S. My own piano is a Weissbrod.

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#2040336 - 02/27/13 06:28 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: David Boyce]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 119
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Thank you, Mr.Boyce for a graceously prompt reply. I can see that you were raised very well.

Like he said before, he has given us 30+ years of his personal
knowledge, asking nothing in return; we benificiaries should be
forever grateful. Not that there aren't others who also help us
in our learning process, but what more can I say, the man is
Special.

And if he ever decides to get into the piano making business,
I guess we both would love to have a Bremmer in our homes.

Herr Weiss

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#2040360 - 02/27/13 07:35 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
That's a really comprehensive look at overdamper pianos David, thanks for that!

My favourite overdamper that I've seen was one with a left shift pedal. It was german, and the mechanism no longer worked, but it looked like it would have been effective. The plate cracked as soon as i started tuning it, unfortunately!
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2040365 - 02/27/13 07:56 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Oh what a shame about the plate cracking, Phil! I have very occasionally come across an overdamper piano with a left shift pedal. Maybe only once or twice, and it's a long time since I saw one. I will make sure to get photos if I ever see another. I'm on a mission nowadays to document things! It annoys me that many years ago I encountered an old spinet-height piano with tuning pins at the BACK of the pinblock, facing away from the player/tuner, and I never got any photos.

Best regards,

David.
http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/birdcage-pianos.php

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#2041243 - 03/01/13 08:45 AM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland
Now, short before my weekend (only one tuning left), I find some time to thank you all for your help on my Spinet revision.
That was my first regulation on a spinet piano, but uprights and grands I did already many of them. So that's why I asked for your help, because I have heard before, that you can loose hours of putting back the action because of these fingers.

It was ( and still is) a Knight spinet (England) from 1965, the hammers were replaced a few years ago with a new set of hammers by Abel. Good quality hammer, but I think, they were not really good prevoiced, so the harshness of this piano. After regulating, a pitch raise, a fine tuning and voicing, my wrist hurts quiet a little bit, but it sounded, thank god, better than before. I you like, you can listen to the audio file:

http://snd.sc/Z2dFmD

The action contains three parts: One rail with wooden capstains, I could remove it without problems and put back too, a second one with these stickers and the third one with the hammers and wippens etc. see the pictures, made with my Ipodtouch.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/81qt0zj070a7n89/MoRBXLRjtF

Once again, thanks for all your help!! THat is very great in this piano forum.
Have a good weekend

Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#2042288 - 03/03/13 11:42 AM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Wow, Toni! What a lovely sounding spinet! Nicely done! thumb

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2042369 - 03/03/13 02:21 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Cinnamonbear]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Wow indeed! Well done you! I hope your customer is suitably pleased and impressed!

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#2042399 - 03/03/13 03:52 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 119
Loc: New York, N.Y.
@Mr.Goldener: Your spinet puts my humble, American made Weser spinet,which I bought brand new in 1972, to shame.
There is no comparison, my sounds more like a toy-piano.
The difference I reckon is in Craftsmanship. The Knight is visually pleasing as well; a work of Art.

Whilst my spinet, was made in an assembly line, to be sold to
ignorant customers, who do not know the first thing about pianos.

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#2042421 - 03/03/13 04:38 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: Toni Goldener]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Knight pianos were quite sturdy, decent instruments. They sold a lot to Schools. The 1970s ones have a tendency now to sound hard as nails. But I came across one last week that were pretty good.

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#2042462 - 03/03/13 05:54 PM Re: regulate and voice a drop action [Re: David Boyce]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 119
Loc: New York, N.Y.
@Mr.Boyce: Hello again and thank you for the additional info.
I see now, more clearly than before, that, there are pianos and then, there are PIANOS.
As a newbie I want to study daily; to raise the bar and not stay
stagnant. I will 'dissect' my piano to learn all the pros and cons of Spinets. Already know that it is much easier to get the action out than to put it back, as precision comes into play;
so all the parts are synchronized like a fine watch.
Tuning them is another story, haha.
Cheers, H.W.

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