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#2029816 - 02/09/13 10:54 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
The Alpha piano apparently uses a pressure sensor. That's the only one I know of. Since no one ever sees or plays the Alpha piano, we may never know whether it really does use a pressure sensor or how well it performs.

In this forum we often find ourselves thinking wishfully about other sensor designs. For example, I had in mind that the AvantGrands use some kind of continuous measurement sensor for the longest time or perhaps that they had a sensor at the strike point so whenever the hammer moves there we would get a note. It doesn't. The hammer shank interrupts optical paths and gives two discrete on events. The time between them is calculated, similar to what is done in a regular DP. It is possible on the AvantGrand to toss the hammer up (for example, while playing off the jack) and not get a note.

I think there must be good reasons for using these two- or three-part sensors, unfortunately.

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#2029825 - 02/09/13 11:08 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ando
I suspect pressure pads are difficult for some reason - either for accuracy or durability because it really would be much easier to have a real hammer hitting a pressure switch and another sensor for the damper on the key. That's it! Would be so much easier to calibrate. Probably feel more realistic too. None this interpolating velocity stuff, just pure whack of the hammer and dampers determined by the key position. There must be a reason why they aren't doing it though.

Cost, added complexity, you need a switch there anyway for damping, they don't want to try something new when the old bog simple $0.02 rubber boot over $0.02 of PCB is selling fine, etc. - otherwise totally doable and would make a lot of sense for a hammered action instrument like the piano. I'm kind of surprised none of the "I tore apart an old real grand and made my dream DP" threads around here have taken the logical step of utilizing the original action with piezos retrofits or something.

It's something of a shame two or three switches work as well as they do, it keeps the entire industry mired at a certain "good enough" (or so they think) level of performance and realism with little desire to move up. The influence of MIDI has done the same for decades now.

Manufacturers are huge risk averse fraidy cats when it comes to doing anything boldly new, even if it makes infinite sense. But DPs exist more to make profit than actual music so I suppose we're just lucky when anyone involved in their design actually cares enough to make them slightly better.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2029832 - 02/09/13 11:18 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: ando]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: ando
I suspect pressure pads are difficult for some reason - either for accuracy or durability because it really would be much easier to have a real hammer hitting a pressure switch and another sensor for the damper on the key. That's it!

Right. It's trivial to measure velocity between 2 time points, but much harder to measure instantaneous pressure with consistency across 88 sensors. Periodic calibration needed for sure.

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#2029942 - 02/09/13 03:16 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Temperament, I believe the behaviour is the same as with the original RM3 Grand action.
x
That previous topic was about the suboptimal use of the 3-Sensor keyboards as the GF is. The intriguing problem was that while the last 2 sensors are able to generate Key ON events during fast repetitions, for single key press it was not possible. I guessed this behavior was due to a simple algorithm issue in the GF, but the question was, whether this is unchanged in RM3 Grand II (which is presumably more similar in this regard to GF, bot to RM3 with 2 Sensors only.)

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#2029943 - 02/09/13 03:29 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: CyberGene]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
...This seems to me as a better approximation of a real piano, for example repeated notes would strike a vibrating tine which supposedly generates different velocity than if it was static....
I think it is a more relevant issue, which cannot be captured by MIDI events at all.
I think this complex physical phenomenon of (re)striking of an already vibrating string (which has obviously also a short dampening effect etc...) has not been reproduced with present sampled pianos at all - which shortcoming impacts most significantly the attack phase.
(What is the case with modelled instrument?)


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#2029950 - 02/09/13 03:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
AFAIK all of the DPs simulated hammer actions have a mechanically coupled hammer part which. It is than up to the manufacturer to place some of the sensors or all of them on the key block or on the hammer part - completely irrelevant.

It is very interesting experience to play a real acoustic clavichord, which has no mechanical hammer or plucks - and the key block builds the hammer as a unit. In that regard it resembles to a DP action (with 2 parts but which are coupled.)

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#2029953 - 02/09/13 03:45 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
dbudde Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: Temperament
I think it is a more relevant issue, which cannot be captured by MIDI events at all.
I think this complex physical phenomenon of (re)striking of an already vibrating string (which has obviously also a short dampening effect etc...) has not been reproduced with present sampled pianos at all - which shortcoming impacts most significantly the attack phase.
(What is the case with modelled instrument?)



The player for Vienna Imperial triggers different release samples depending on how long a sample has been playing. If I'm not mistaken, this is done precisely for the reason you mention.

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#2029967 - 02/09/13 04:17 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dewster]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: dewster

It's something of a shame two or three switches work as well as they do, it keeps the entire industry mired at a certain "good enough" (or so they think) level of performance and realism with little desire to move up. The influence of MIDI has done the same for decades now.
While You have completely right with MIDI, I am not sure how important it is to completely mimic an acoustic action. I mean not for the manufacturer, but for us customer too.
With the DP you have the playability (smoth, accurate, expressive playing) the only concern, with acoustic you had to move a big apparatus with physical weight, length, etc. It was not invented for just playability, but for generating a big, nice, rich tone. When you don't need it the only purpose to mimic this is to build a practise instrument for rehearsal.

But to play only - I can imagine an ever "better" action from the scratch. (I heard very often the myth of the "perfect piano" - mostly from elderly piano teachers in my childhood.)

We don't carry all of the parts of horse drown vehicles in our cars...

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#2029970 - 02/09/13 04:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: dbudde]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Originally Posted By: dbudde
The player for Vienna Imperial triggers different release samples depending on how long a sample has been playing. If I'm not mistaken, this is done precisely for the reason you mention.

"1,200 recorded samples per key" - wahnsinn... Vienna Imperial (Bösendorfer)

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#2030011 - 02/09/13 06:25 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Temperament]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4332
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Temperament
While You have completely right with MIDI, I am not sure how important it is to completely mimic an acoustic action. I mean not for the manufacturer, but for us customer too.

<snip>

But to play only - I can imagine an ever "better" action from the scratch. (I heard very often the myth of the "perfect piano" - mostly from elderly piano teachers in my childhood.)

We don't carry all of the parts of horse drown vehicles in our cars...

I'm not very interested in replicating AP actions either. I firmly believe there are many alternatives waiting to be discovered which will in many ways feel more responsive and superior to AP actions.

But in terms of connection between the action and the sound, I'm convinced high resolution positional information is the best way to go. From there you can calculate velocity, acceleration, and any higher order moments. Given two or three discrete positions you can't do a whole lot, even when you get to pick those positions.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2030120 - 02/09/13 10:04 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
I still don't see why. If the instrument you seek to replicate features escapement, there's no need for any information besides velocity at the point of escapement. To have an action where that was not the case would be very different from a piano (digital or acoustic) indeed.

Of course, that assumes that velocity is measured at or past the point of escapement. Unfortunately we have observed that that is often not the case.

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#2030161 - 02/09/13 11:07 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1975
Loc: Rocky Mountains
James... I'd like to thank Kawai for the VPC. I'm always looking around for my upgrade. I think I found it.

I'd like to thank Kawai for listening. My intuition tells me where this is going. Including, finally, some Kawai's in software pianos. I like it.

For those who need key vibrations. Somebody needs to come out with a DP stand that is made of two speakers. That should vibrate the keys. If that isn't good enough. A piano bench speaker. But then, that wouldn't vibrate the keys. Either way, they get a vibrator. smile

Again....I'd like to thank Kawai. I've always loved Kawai's sound. It is my opinion that it competes with the best.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2030193 - 02/10/13 12:40 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you Ron!

It's interest to note the varying reactions to the VPC1 across the different internet forums. Some users can get very, shall we say, passionate!

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2030537 - 02/10/13 01:58 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Miguel Rey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 283
Started my quest a couple months ago looking for a midi controller with GP feel, had this been available I would have purchased it on the spot. But since nothing was out there I turned my attention to cabinet DP's and landed on the CA65 but now that the VPC will be available in a couple weeks I'm starting to rethink my decision. I really like the idea that the sound emanates from the cabinet like a real piano but another stumbling block is that the VPC does not have the GF keyboard, yet cost may be the determining factor for me if there is a substantial savings. Lets do the numbers:
CA65 (2800-3400 USD) $3100.00 average
VPC $1850+ $350 (descent monitors)+$200 (stand/bench)= $2,200.00

Even if I was to get the CA65 for $2800 there still is a $600.00 difference. Wonder if the GF keyboard and sound quality with the onboard speakers worth it. Not factoring in VST's because I plan on using them know matter what.




Edited by Miguel Rey (02/10/13 02:00 PM)
_________________________
Bechstein B c1905


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#2030540 - 02/10/13 02:05 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, tough to know. We haven't had all that many people comparing GF and RM3 yet. I'm still looking for a chance to test this myself and see if it matters to me. RM3 has been beloved for quite a while in this forum.

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#2030961 - 02/11/13 07:17 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Miguel Rey]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1975
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Miguel Rey
... Lets do the numbers:
CA65 (2800-3400 USD) $3100.00 average
VPC $1850+ $350 (descent monitors)+$200 (stand/bench)= $2,200.00


You won't be happy with $350 monitors. They won't live up to the sound from the VST's. Figure on at least $1000 for monitors. More like $1,500. Also need to figure in a good sound box. Not a PreSonus either. Unless you're running a Mac? You might want a good sound box anyways? You'll have, arguably, better sound than the best DP out there.
Just to mention...a real good sound box can be a good pre amp for an SM57. You'd be surprised at how good an SM57 sounds with a good pre amp.
Either way...with the VPC, you can always upgrade everything else. smile
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2030966 - 02/11/13 07:32 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
F-30 pedal set.

Perhaps this was asked before, but can they be used with an es7 ? I know it's not available (yet) as a separate product, but would like to know if it works with the ES. Thinking of a VPC as fixed setup and use my ES for take away. Could then take with me the F-30 as well..., instead of f-10 + f-20

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#2030990 - 02/11/13 08:35 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: JFP]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hi JFP,

Originally Posted By: JFP
Perhaps this was asked before, but can they be used with an es7 ?


I'm afraid not.

As mentioned earlier:

Originally Posted By: myself
Due to the technical design of the F-30, I believe it will only function correctly (i.e. as a triple pedal unit) with the MP8, MP8II, and MP10 (i.e. not the MP5 or MP6). And even then, a software update would be required each of those models.


The ES7 is the same situation as the MP5/MP6. Essentially, the F-30 will only be compatible with boards that included the F-20.

I hope this answers your question - sorry if it's not the response you wanted to hear.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2031000 - 02/11/13 09:14 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: rnaple]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Originally Posted By: Miguel Rey
... Lets do the numbers:
CA65 (2800-3400 USD) $3100.00 average
VPC $1850+ $350 (descent monitors)+$200 (stand/bench)= $2,200.00


You won't be happy with $350 monitors. They won't live up to the sound from the VST's. Figure on at least $1000 for monitors. More like $1,500.


You are right that there are much better speakers to be had, but I would imagine that a pair of monitors costing $350 would compare with the onboard speakers of the CA65. So for purposes of comparison it's not an unreasonable assumption. Don't you think?

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#2031147 - 02/11/13 01:13 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Kawai James]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 497
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Hi JFP,

Originally Posted By: JFP
Perhaps this was asked before, but can they be used with an es7 ?


I'm afraid not.

As mentioned earlier:

Originally Posted By: myself
Due to the technical design of the F-30, I believe it will only function correctly (i.e. as a triple pedal unit) with the MP8, MP8II, and MP10 (i.e. not the MP5 or MP6). And even then, a software update would be required each of those models.


The ES7 is the same situation as the MP5/MP6. Essentially, the F-30 will only be compatible with boards that included the F-20.

I hope this answers your question - sorry if it's not the response you wanted to hear.

Cheers,
James
x


Odd,
From all appearances the F-30 is 3 pedals, the right hand one (at least) is a continuous controller, the others may be switches or continuous. I had "ASSUMED" that the 3 cords could plug into 'anything' and be assigned midi controller numbers - I had assumed the f-20 was VERY similar.

The Roland 3 pedal board may be the solution ?

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#2031159 - 02/11/13 01:41 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: rnaple]
Miguel Rey Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 283
Not to sure about having to spend 1000 bucks for monitors. My M Audio Bx8a already sound better then most cabinets, they are just too big and was thinking of buying Rokit 5" that run about $350.00 , then I would add a sub for another $399.00 (rokit 10"). I didn't calculate the sub into the equation because I was going to add one the the CA65 anyway. Now if I was mixing then I guess the extra cost for better monitors would make sense, but for just piano & keyboard sounds I think the less expensive monitors will be fine. Regarding the sound box I have Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6.

Messing around last night with my current set up and I placed my Bx8's in a couple different positions, on the floor tilted upward and just below keyboard level tilted up and I really like how the sound filled the area behind the keyboard. Only issue with the Bx8's is that the port is on the back and needs plenty of space to avoid thumping sounds but overall it is much nicer then having the speakers pointed directly at me. the VPC is looking good and with the front ported Rokits they may be the ticket, just need to make a would cabinet behind the keyboard to house them if I decide to tilt them up.
_________________________
Bechstein B c1905


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#2031265 - 02/11/13 04:05 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: R_B]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: R_B
I had "ASSUMED" that the 3 cords could plug into 'anything' and be assigned midi controller numbers - I had assumed the f-20 was VERY similar.


The F-30 has two plugs.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2031512 - 02/11/13 10:36 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: Miguel Rey]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1975
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
...$350 would compare with the onboard speakers of the CA65. So for purposes of comparison it's not an unreasonable assumption. Don't you think?


That sounds like good thought.
I should just face the fact that I'm a sound snob. I use my monitors for more than just my piano.

Originally Posted By: Miguel Rey
.... My M Audio Bx8a already sound better then most cabinets, they are just too big and was thinking of buying Rokit 5" ... add a sub for another $399.00 (rokit 10")....I have Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6.


Sounds like you already have a pretty good idea what you're doing.
I think you'd be very happy with the VPC. Looks like it's made for you.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2031611 - 02/12/13 02:29 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
"The F-30 has two plugs"

Yes, and the ES7 two pedal inputs (damper, damper/soft). So either those inputs are incompatible, or the programmers find it too much coding to enable use of the F-30 with those inputs. Is it the first , then so be it. In the second case, there is still a little hope ;-)

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#2031613 - 02/12/13 02:34 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
It's the first - the connectors are incompatible.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2031655 - 02/12/13 06:14 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 497
Phono plugs, by any other name, continue to be phone plugs.
At first glance I didn't notice that one was "Stereo" the other "Mono".

If Kawai has wired them in some odd way in order to be "incompatible" we can expect many future threads to ask why this pedal set produces whatever results when plugged into something else, or doesn't produce any results.
Why "standard" pedals don't work when plugged into VPC, on and on...

The decision to lock themselves out of potential separate sales seems a little odd, but the proprietary vs open design question is a whole 'nother topic.

Does anyone KNOW what signal are available on the phono plugs ?
e.g. is the damper merely a 10K linear pot and the other two n/o switches ?

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#2031660 - 02/12/13 06:20 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8847
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
R_B, I don't believe there was a conscious decision made to prevent some products from functioning correctly, it's just that the F-30 (and F-20) uses a different system to the F-10H. Therefore, instruments that are designed to use the F-10H (e.g. MP5/MP6, ES7) are not compatible.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2032430 - 02/13/13 11:33 AM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
At second, third, fourth.....thought I'm seriously considering ordering the F-30 on the short term. There seems to be a VPC included in the package as an accessories ;-)

I'm only a bit worried that I'm an early adapter again in buying of the first batch, as I did with the MP6 and ES7 and potentially get a unit with small 'details' that have to be worked out. I know it's common wisdom to wait a little, but ....you know ;-)

James are you confident that the first production runs will be "glitch free" . Imagined reply: YES I AM.

OK - so let's do it. VPC on it's way...just hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot this time.

Fortunately there's not much that can be wrong. If the package service leaves the box in one piece, it'll be a review that will simply tell if it works, because speakers, sounds , options and controls are all out of the equation this time.

Fingers crossed.

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#2032487 - 02/13/13 01:49 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
TubularBills Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 9
Loc: France
Hi,

I ordered the ES7 but apparently it's out of stock in France (maybe in other countries over Europe too ?).
Any idea when the production will deliver smoothly again ? My fingers are getting itchy !
I wonder if could have received the VPC earlier... better not think about it.

Thanks

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#2032495 - 02/13/13 02:11 PM Re: Kawai VPC [Re: davinwv]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I guess these batches will be on the same boat :-)

It's just a guess of course...

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