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If the AP-650 is $1700-1800 it'll be interesting to see it reviewed against Yamaha's YDP-162 and Kawai's CN-34.

From Kawai’s warranty:
“KAWAI will attempt to perform service at the location of the instrument.”
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/warranties/Kawai_DP_5yr_warranty.pdf
And as the link states, it’s good for 5 years.
(Note this is only valid for “KAWAI CN, CA AND CP MODEL DIGITAL PIANOS”)

As I mentioned earlier, I have to wait until the dealer gets his current shipment delivered (estimated for early this week) before he can ship the CN34 to me, but I should get the CN34 within a week after that.

DBill,

There's a lot in the Kawai warranty that essentially means it's up to the discretion of Kawai whether they perform the service in your home or have you have the product shipped to them. If you have to ship the product to them, you pay the shipping charges and they pay the return shipping charges. Shipping approx. 100 lbs can be expensive and you risk damage to the product ... which would be your responsibility.

I haven't seen Casio's warranty. It could very well be the same thing.

It's still a big decision though. If the product can't be serviced locally, there's peace of mind getting a DP at the local Guitar Center and paying for the extended warranty.

With regards to the Celviano, I went and to a music store that is expecting to have them in a couple of weeks. They just saw them at NAMM and were able to order them... like Mike Martin said.

To poggler:

It’s interesting that you can get the AP 650 through the Guitar Center chain. The information that I have is quite explicit that Guitar Center stores will NOT be allowed to sell the 650. According to the information that I have, the Guitar Center stores will be able to sell the x20 and earlier series (although the 620 is no longer being produced), but not the 650. (Check with Mike for the final word.)

The information that I have is saying the AP 650 will be uniformly priced by Casio dealers at $1599. It will be interesting to see what the actual price will be.

Kawai’s warranty is publically displayed for everyone to see. I haven’t found a similar public warranty statement by Casio.

I won’t be able to give a firm order to Kawai for the CN34 until later this week, but I’ve essentially given up on the Casio AP 650. At least for me, it isn’t worth the hassle of trying to find someone who is authorized to sell it.

For anyone who is interested, I consider the 650 to be a top quality machine, and it may well be a better “bang for the buck” than Kawai’s CN34. I’ve simply gone past the amount of frustration that I will put up with in regard to Casio.

Since you are not willing to be patient, go buy the Kawai. Casio is in the process of growing their piano dealer network. The AP-650 is a new product, and its not an internet product. Complaining about it here can't change either issue. Some help has been offered to you in exchange for your patience, but asking dealers to violate their business agreements is a bad way get help. You can go and buy it; you just can't order it online or over the phone. This is the same for certain Roland, Yamaha & Kawai products and now Casio as well.

@Bill,

First of all, I believe that the Casio AP-650 is not necessarily a better "bang for the buck" item than the Kawai CN34 you are considering, as I can make a direct comparison between the Casio AP-620 and Kawai EP3, in which the Kawai is the winner (for me) in every respect for sounds, action, and, overall resonance.

Also, I sympathize with your frustration in not getting answers from Casio as I encountered all of the same with the Casio's I had owned. If issues are not dealt with properly, then I am not going to keep the digital.

Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise that Casio's additional features (i.e., bang-for-the-buck stuff) outweigh the more important aspects of having a digital that has sufficient sounds, action, decay, and, harmonic resonance.

What matters in the end is finding a digital that plays reasonably well with no initial decay, sustain, or, resonance issues.

I think if the 650 is one of your choices, you should hold off making the purchase until you can try one. By doing this, you'll have all the information you need to make the correct decision.

Digital pianos are pretty big purchases in terms of money and future enjoyment, not to mention how these pianos look in your house. I would personally wait a bit more.

@Bill

I apologize if I confused things with my post. You're absolutely right the AP-650 is not sold at Guitar Center. I keep sending them emails asking anyway. ("No" is a tough word for me.) Haha. There is a general music store near me which is one of the listed dealers for the AP-650. I went there yesterday and talked with the owner. He said they had all gone to NAMM and seen the DPs, placed their orders, and should be receiving shipments of the Privias/Celvianos within a couple of weeks. Their store received authorization to sell the new Celvianos because of the lack of "piano" stores in my area. The AP-650 is probably not one they're going to stock a lot of because they're planning on the AP-450 as their top Celviano. He said he'll be getting back with me on AP-650 pricing and availability soon.

I mentioned Guitar Center because I already have a PX-850 on order with them. It's not due to ship until around the 1st week of March. I'm still deciding whether I want to stay with the 850 or upgrade to the AP-450. I actually went to Guitar Center today and tried out the 350 which has the same keys. I liked playing it more than the Yamahas they had in the store (P155, DGX640). The keys on the 350 did seem a little more plastic-like when I tapped on them with my fingernails; but they felt more substantive like an acoustic (in my amateur opinion) than the Yamahas. And I liked the texture on the keys. I also liked the sound of the 350 and couldn't detect the short decay people are mentioning here ... at least with my amateur ears anyway.

I'd love to try out a Kawai but the closest dealer is about 2.5 hours away from me and may not be open during the hours I'm available to make the trip. If I'm still having problems deciding before the 850 ships from GC, I may end up trekking it to the Kawai dealer anyway.

TLDR: From what I've tried, I know I'd be happy with the 850 I can get from Guitar Center. Still trying to decide if I'd be happier with the AP-650... whether it would be worth paying the ~$600 extra. Still also trying to decide if I'd have regrets not trying a Kawai if I can't find one near me or make the trip to a dealer.

To poggler

What I had been trying to do was to find someone who could sell an AP 650. This was similar to your efforts. Casio has created a complete mess with the way they are trying to set up a dealer system. People that I have been in contact with told me back in December that Casio wasn’t going to sell the AP 650 via the Internet, but instead, Casio was going to sell it via a dealer system. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was the person who tipped off Kraft Music that they were going to be frozen out. Casio didn’t advise Kraft early in the game about what was going on.

If Casio knew in December (and probably much earlier than December), why didn’t they get their dealer system set up before NAMM? If a dealer system had been set up before NAMM, then by the time NAMM occurred, Casio’s “Where to Buy Store Locator” http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy would have given consumers (like us) an accurate list of places to go where we could buy Casio products.

Immediately after NAMM, I assumed that the “Where to Buy” list was accurate. The “Where to Buy” list included many Guitar Center stores, Best Buy stores, (I contacted both chains) as well as independent retailers (and I contacted several of them). I assumed that the “Where to Buy” list was an accurate list of retailers for Casio products.

We now know the “Where to Buy” list is not accurate. As of 9:30 MST tonight, there still isn’t a Casio dealer listed for any major city in Colorado (my home state). The “Where to Buy” list has led us off on a wild goose chase. I think Casio’s mismanagement of the dealership transfer may have produced a lot of other misunderstandings in addition to the consumer level. I don’t have information from inside Casio, but I suspect this transition to a dealership idea probably came from the “high mucky mucks” in Casio so that Mike is also caught in the confusion.


To Sam

In regard to your statement regarding my plans to buy a Kawai CN34: “You can go and buy it”
I intend to do just that.

In regard to your statement “asking dealers to violate their business agreements”
Please review our Private Messages. I have not asked you or any other dealer “to violate their business agreements”. For that matter, how would I have any knowledge of what your business agreements were?

If you would like to argue the point, I can easily put our entire conversation on a web page (on my website) where the whole world can check it.

Huh, I guess it's too bad that I'll never hear the full AIR engine on an AP-650 down at GC then. Maybe on the PX-5S eventually, though my GC removed the PX-3 board a while ago now. I think there's a Casio synth in that spot now.

This is a frustrating thread to read now. There's some odd folks out there.

DBill - you need to understand the distinction between the Casio dealer network and any issues that may raise and the simple fact that you were interested in a brand new Casio product that it seems NO ONE HAS AT THE MOMENT. Whatever the situation with the evolving Casio network you are not going to get a 650 within a day or two - the product is brand new and stocks are just not out there yet.

As Sam and Mike have said - be patient or buy an alternative product.

Trying to act as some digital piano James Bond (007 - licence to moan) and "tipping off" Kraft or anyone else that Casio might or might not include them in their network or authorised retailers for this product is not your place and - if I were to be charitable - I would describe as "eccentric" behaviour. I have no doubt Kraft can look after their own relationship with Casio without any input from you.

Having read your posts if I was Casio I'd be awfully grateful you'd decided to buy a Kawai!

I'm not calling you the bad guy, I'm only saying you are too impatient if you want the Casio to come to you. Some previous internet dealers thought/hoped they would represent the new models and that created the cloud of different information that surrounded you. When we spoke a few days ago, I anticipated this and explained how some places would dance around while getting your hopes up. I gave you an estimated timeline from Casio based on the best information available. And, at that time, I clarified why far away dealers couldn't just satisfy your request.

I do not expect you to know the business agreement when you approached me. You didn't do anything wrong, but know that posting the PM's will not be embarrassing to me. I explained that you needed to visit a dealer. I hoped Casio would find the next closest dealer (not me) and assign them to you, but that is their decision. Even that would require an exception to the new dealer model where you must try before you buy. Nothing has changed in the week since we spoke except that Casio is a week closer to answering you.

You were asking some of the wrong questions to some of the wrong people. You didn't know you were asking the wrong questions, and since this is not like the previous AP's, gratification is not instant for everyone, everywhere. I accept you choosing an alternative product that meets your needs and your timeline. I just don't like the idea that Casio somehow let you down. Even the competitor had to order a DP for you. By March when it arrives, Casio probably would have had an answer for you. That's my whole point.

First off, just really have to thank the dealers and DP company representatives who contribute to this board. Really helps in the decision-making process.

FWIW, I think Casio is doing right by limiting their new Celvianos to authorized dealers. It makes it more difficult, sure. I'd rather order it online, sure. But at least in this case, chances are it encourages the customer to go to several B&M stores to try out different DPs, possibly promoting a better decision and customer satisfaction. It also might help improve perception of product value long-term (once people get used to the idea of Casio having authorized dealer-only products).

I really hope some people who've actually purchased and played an AP-650 over a longer period of time can contribute to this post or start a new (non-dead horse) thread.

For anyone who still had any remaining doubts as to whether I would buy a Casio Celviano 650 or a Kawai CN34, I officially ordered (including credit card number) the CN34 today. A friend of mine will be picking it up in Denver, CO on Sat. (Feb. 16) and bringing it back to Durango on Sun. The sales agent said this method of delivery would not affect the warranty, and it saves on shipping costs.

The deciding factor for the decision between the two machines was Kawai’s publicly posted, 5-yr, parts and labor, on-site service warranty.
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/warranties/Kawai_DP_5yr_warranty.pdf

The two machines have many features in common although as you might expect, the CN34 has a few that the Casio 650 doesn’t have. For example the CN34 has Handbells, Tubular Bells, Church Bells, Carillon, etc. that might be fun to play with for Christmas music. On the other hand I’m not sure how I might play “Helicopter”. Alternately, you could split the keyboard so that all but one of the keys are a regular piano, and play the other note, “Applause”, at the end of your performance.

Besides the usual splits, instrument overlays, layers, etc., the CN34 has a Balance Slider that can control the relative volume of each. For example, suppose you have a musical piece where the melody is played in the lower notes by your left hand. (i.e. pv88’s Schubert) You can split the keyboard (at any arbitrary key) but keep the same instrument on both sides. Then you can use the Balance Slider to increase the relative volume of the lower notes. This is somewhat easier than trying to play fortissimo (or even louder) with your left hand at the same time your right hand is supposed to be limited to pianissimo (or even quieter).

Of course, you pay more for all of the above as a CN34 costs more than the Casio 650’s $1599.

The only uncertainty that I have is the volume of the CN34’s speakers. The CN34 will be going in a large room (ceiling slopes from 20 ft. high on one side to 25 feet on the other side). As with the 650, you can always add external speakers. I’ll let everyone know how it goes.

There are videos at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pd-7Vtt5kw and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jyRUY8OKeI that give quick reviews of the CN34.They are what you would expect from “infomercials”, but they are a good introduction.

@Bill,

Congratulations on your Kawai CN34, as I think you will like the sounds, action, and response, of this digital. No need to worry about the speakers as they should be reasonably loud enough as is, although adding speakers with an additional subwoofer would help in bringing out the lower bass range.

Also, your warranty (with Kawai) is a very good one, too.

Would like to hear your review, when you can do so.

From what I've seen and read I like both the AP650 and CN34. However, is it fair to compare them to each other? Doesn't the CN34 cost around $600 to $700 more?

Andy,
Is your assessment based on the AP-650's built-in speakers, or while using headphones? I tinkered with the 150/350 recently and thought there was not much improvement, while using the built-in speakers. But I do think they sound a lot better than the PX-x30 with headphones. (Having said that, no they don't compare to the Roland SuperNatural right next to them with headphones, but I'm just curious if maybe some of Casio's woes result from headphone sound mastering.) Though I also thought the Roland sounded like crap through GC's external speaker setup ... perhaps that's not so surprising, heh. I did like the texture on the PX-350 keys after having used the Roland for a while.

When I got my PX slab last year, my wife (from Japan) said, "Casio, don't they make watches?" Lol, I think the AP-650 has an uphill battle as a dealer exclusive model.

Xorbe,

Both. Speakers or headphones, for me, the initial decay in the middle range was unacceptable.

That's why I quickly returned it to the store and swapped it for the roland.

Assuming the Casio Celviano AP 650 will be priced at $1599 (And I think my info on this price is reliable), I paid almost $600 more for the Kawai. I think the 650 is also a good machine – especially for its price. The problem that I ran into was the ability to buy it.

Casio will eventually get a usable dealership organization, but the problem is when. I gave up waiting for it and instead will have the CN34 by Sunday evening. (Followed by “Some adult assembly required”.)

There’s already been a photo coverage of the CN34 on this forum (at http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1988239/1.html ), and I don’t think I can add much to that. I bought the “Rosewood” color ( http://store.kawaius.com/p/cn34-rosewood-digital-piano?pp=8&pp=8 but well under this price) instead of white, but other than that, it will look about the same.

As for a musical review, it’s been 35 years since I’ve played a piano and it’s going to take a while before I can get the old skills back. (And that’s assuming I can get my fingers to work properly.) At this point, my only review is that any piano that you can get your hands on is better than no piano.

pv88 may have a good point about the CN34 needing a subwoofer. It takes a lot of sound energy to get a good sound output for low frequencies, and the CN34 may need some help. (Note: The long string lengths of the large acoustics (equals higher energy storage capacity) are what give them their great bass tones.)

I’ve got the 2 vol. set of “The Library of Piano Classics” and think I can start in again from that level. There’s also a lot of free classical sheet music available on the Internet. For example I’ve downloaded Liszt’s 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (which at one time I could play from memory), so I’ll have plenty to work with. The version that I downloaded appears to be a note for note match with Maxim’s video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no

Liszt will have to wait for a bit. There are portions where your right hand gets a real workout, and I may never get that ability back. I think I may try Grieg’s “In the Hall of the Mountain King” (A. Pero’s arrangement – not this version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAhKkPUo_A ) fairly early as that is a musical representation of where I live. (Will also give the CN34’s low notes a test. I can compare headphone output with speaker output, and if there’s a notable difference, the speakers would be assumed guilty.)

@DBill,

Thanks for checking in. It'll be great to hear your feedback on your experiences with the CN34 (maybe in a new thread?).