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OP
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I'm a middling pianist and have learned a few of Chopin's waltzes in the last year. I've played through the Eb Nocturne (#2) and while the right hand is pretty approachable the Left Hand seems Really Hard. Every measure seems different from every other measure in the piece.
The melody repeats every 20 measures or so. Is there similar order in the left hand I and I just haven't noticed it yet?
If any if you have played this piece how did you learn it?
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From what you have written, I don't understand how "every measure seems different from every other measure" makes the "Left Hand seem(s) Really Hard."
Whether the left hand measures repeat a pattern or not, what makes them so hard, in your estimation? The pattern is simply a bass note followed by two two-note or two three-note chords. This pattern continues throughout, and, at a leisurely tempo, should not be a technical challenge.
The left hand of measures 5-8 plays the same notes as the left hand of measures 1-4, except that in 1-2 the bass notes are an octave lower.
The left hand is the same in measures 9-12 as in measures 17-20. The left hand is the same, again, in measures 21-24 as it is in measures 13-16, etc., etc.
There is a lot of repetition of left-hand figures throughout this Nocturne. However, as always happens in Chopin, every once in a while he will repeat a left hand figure with one note in the chord different from what it was in the previous iteration. You just have to keep a close eye on the text as you learn/play this work.
Regards,
BruceD
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Estonia 190
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I think the hard part for me is two part. A) the chords in e.g. the second line are not ones I can sight-read (dense clusters, unusual flats like Cb and way about the bar in the LH) and B) The harmony is not moving in a way that is easy for me to quickly grasp. Once I have a mental model of what I'm playing both in the small ("oh, this is an Eb second inversion, this is an F major etc. etc") and in the large ("The harmonies go I-III-II" or whatever) then it should be reasonably straightforward to learn but puzzling that out is the hard part. I am happy to hear that the harmonies repeat at least some, and I know Chopin likes to do things like voice 1-3-7 in one spot and 1-5-7 in another so the chord is the same just a minor difference in voicing - that's not always completely obvious just glancing through the score. I think I just need to go through and write jazz-style chord notations in the measures (Eb, Eb/D, C7, etc) and then I'll be able to play it. I wish classical pieces notated the chords in the score the way rock/pop/jazz charts do; it would make sight-reading a lot easier 
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I wish classical pieces notated the chords in the score the way rock/pop/jazz charts do; it would make sight-reading a lot easier The nature of classical music is to "notate notes", not chords. Every note is important. Play the notes, and the harmony will take care of itself.
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I think I just need to go through and write jazz-style chord notations in the measures (Eb, Eb/D, C7, etc) and then I'll be able to play it. I wish classical pieces notated the chords in the score the way rock/pop/jazz charts do; it would make sight-reading a lot easier I think it's great that you can play jazz-style chord notations. Not everyone can do that well. But if you really want to learn classical pieces you'll need to work on your reading skills. Start with easier pieces and gradually work up. It will all begin to make more sense over time - and will be well worth the effort.
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[...] I think I just need to go through and write jazz-style chord notations in the measures (Eb, Eb/D, C7, etc) and then I'll be able to play it. I wish classical pieces notated the chords in the score the way rock/pop/jazz charts do; it would make sight-reading a lot easier That may help towards understanding the harmonic structure, but it is, I think, a crutch that is not going to help you learn the notes as they are written. You may even find that you end up reading the chord symbols and begin to learn the "wrong" notes, even though you may have the basic harmony somewhat "correct." Thus, I would recommend against this approach. As has been said above by OM, every note in classical notation is important and has its distinctive function; the sometimes minor differences from one chord to its apparent repetition, enable the performer to voice the chords in such a way that those subtleties appear and make the music as interesting as it is. Don't take short-cuts. Learn to read and play the music as it is written, as that will greatly enhance your sight-reading abilities in the long run. Have you practiced the left hand separately? Regards,
BruceD
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Estonia 190
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The nature of classical music is to "notate notes", not chords. Every note is important. Play the notes, and the harmony will take care of itself. Well I mean, sure, but it sure helps me get to the notes faster if the harmony is called out. Much easier to grasp what the piece is doing if I can scan over something like "Eb Ab F Ab" first. Then I have some idea of what to expect. My sight reading isn't awful but classical pieces can be pretty dense even when the harmonic ideas aren't necessarily that complicated. I usually wind up penciling in the chords to help me remember where the piece is going and to understand how the piece is put together. I can learn it a lot faster that way.
Last edited by jawhitti; 02/12/13 02:17 PM.
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I usually wind up penciling in the chords to help me remember where the piece is going and to understand how the piece is put together. I can learn it a lot faster that way. You should do always do that. It's much easier to learn what you're playing if you understand it. You should also learn/know which intervals of each chord that you're playing....in group 1, the bass note root, then 3rd & 8va, then 5th root & 3rd (if I remember correctly). Understanding the music on this level will make it much easier, and will make learning future pieces easier as well! Also, getting over the chords as much as possible will help. Play the bass note, then get over as much of the next two chords as possible (some are easy, some are not). Also look for the voice leading. Chopin always has great voice leading. For example, the bottom note of the second 8th note in each group is nicely voiced...G Ab G G G G F F... The top notes of the chords... Eb G, D Ab, Eb G, Eb G etc. It's a beautiful intricate puzzle that deserved to be studied and admired.
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While I consider the piece on the easier side, I know where you are coming from with the left hand. Chopin's left hand in general always troubled me. Too many chords that are slightly different, making it a little tough to memorize. My only advice (I get how you want to approach it in the jazz way too) is to memorize the harmonic structure. For example, the first measure has 4 basic chords, 3 of which are Eb major. The second measure starts with two C7 chords, etc. The constantly changing voicings is what makes it tough, but part of playing this music is mastering every note and chord, and usually memorizing the entire piece.
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The constantly changing voicings is what makes it tough, but part of playing this music is mastering every note and chord, and usually memorizing the entire piece. And if the OP's reading skills were stronger, memorization wouldn't necessarily be a requirement.
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Where is exactly is 'heck'?
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"Heck" is not what I typed. Apparently the word I used is way too dirty for the folks that run this site.
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Where is exactly is 'heck'? Where you go if you don't believe in Gosh. F
Mompou, Cancion y Danza #6
some Chopin, some Bach (always), Debussy
My beliefs are only that unless I can prove them.
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And if the OP's reading skills were stronger, memorization wouldn't necessarily be a requirement. No kidding. OP should go away until he has world-class technical / reading chops or at least a performance degree. Boo! Hey OP, you suck!
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And if the OP's reading skills were stronger, memorization wouldn't necessarily be a requirement. No kidding. OP should go away until he has world-class technical / reading chops or at least a performance degree. Boo! Hey OP, you suck!  Not at all, OP - not at all !!! Just suggesting that you continue to work at it. You'll be surprised how much easier it will become...and with stronger reading skills you'll be able to learn music faster and won't be forced to memorize everything - unless, of course, you prefer to play by memory. 
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Thanks, carey. I took this to my instructor tonight and we worked through the first two lines, which should be enough to get me going through it. That second line is a total nightmare to sightread - too much going on and in my very weakest sight-reading area - above the bass clef. And yes, we went through it and wrote down the chords, jazz style. So, for the record if anyone else is trying to learn Chopin Op9 #2 here are the chords for the first four measures. There's a lot going on | Eb Bb7 Eb Eb | | C7 Bbdim Fm Fm | | Bb7 G7/B Cm Adim7 | | Bbsus Bb Eb Eb |
Last edited by jawhitti; 02/12/13 11:38 PM.
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....Adim7.... |
*you could argue for Cdim7 too, I think. Tomay-to, tomah-to.
Aren't they the same? The only difference (maybe, depending on exactly what you follow on naming the chords, which I'm not sure about) is which note is in the bass, but it doesn't seem you're worrying about that in general from what you call the other chords.... edit: I see that you edited it out. Never mind.
Last edited by Mark_C; 02/12/13 11:41 PM.
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Yeah they are the same but I convinced myself that it's really functioning off A there, not C.
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Where is exactly is 'heck'? Where you go if you don't believe in Gosh. F Don't fudge with my Gosh!
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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I think the hard part for me is two part. A) the chords in e.g. the second line are not ones I can sight-read (dense clusters, unusual flats like Cb and way about the bar in the LH) and B) The harmony is not moving in a way that is easy for me to quickly grasp. Once I have a mental model of what I'm playing both in the small ("oh, this is an Eb second inversion, this is an F major etc. etc") and in the large ("The harmonies go I-III-II" or whatever) then it should be reasonably straightforward to learn but puzzling that out is the hard part. I am happy to hear that the harmonies repeat at least some, and I know Chopin likes to do things like voice 1-3-7 in one spot and 1-5-7 in another so the chord is the same just a minor difference in voicing - that's not always completely obvious just glancing through the score. I think I just need to go through and write jazz-style chord notations in the measures (Eb, Eb/D, C7, etc) and then I'll be able to play it. I wish classical pieces notated the chords in the score the way rock/pop/jazz charts do; it would make sight-reading a lot easier If classical composers ever started notating like that, I would stop playing classical music.
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