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#2031786 - 02/12/13 11:44 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MacMacMac]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I used to think this might be true ...
"I pretty much agree with xorbe, as long as most DPs are made by instrument companies that also sell 'real' pianos you'll probably not see a 'perfect' digital at least not by them."

... but no longer. Roland makes good digitals. So does Casio. Neither manufacture acoustic pianos.

It sounds like that's evidence that you're agreeing with them, rather than no longer agreeing with them!

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#2031788 - 02/12/13 11:47 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: KataiYubi]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: KataiYubi
The perfect DP will be/have:

A) Affordable - max $3000.

Everyone will have their own ideas of perfect. But there are people who pay $50k for an acoustic grand because it's closer to perfect than a $25k model, so I don't know how close to perfect you're going to get in a $3k emulation. ;-)

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#2031808 - 02/12/13 12:32 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: bennevis]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 756
Originally Posted By: bennevis
BUT - it will be the only instrument you can have (don't forget, it's supposed to be your perfect DP, or as close to one as what is available today), and a DP can't be perfect if you have to have two or three different ones, plus an acoustic grand. So, you can't have an acoustic either.
DP's are for gigging, so picking only one is not an accurate poll. I can't gig with AG and I can't fit in my house or afford a Steinway B.

I love my FP4 compared to any other gigging boards. I know I could easily get bored with action if it was my only piano.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2031814 - 02/12/13 12:35 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Nigeth]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
As for a pretty good aproximation of an acoustic I'd say that all the pieces are there we've simply not seen anybody put them expertly together to form a coherent instrument.

The Crumar Baby Grand may be closest to what you want.

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
The problem is. The companies that have shown that they could tackle the electronics and SW side of things (Clavia, Korg, Casio etc.) don't have access to the best actions and don't exert to much effort to built one.
...
The companies that have shown that they can tackle the instrument side of things (Kawai, Yamaha) don't have the best expertise in electronics and SW or don't exert too much effort in that field.

"Best actions" is very subjective, as are "best electronics." Not everyone would agree that Clavia and Korg have better electronics (better sounding pianos) than Kawai and Yamaha. Not everyone even agrees that Kawai and Yamaha actions are necessarily better than Casio's.

But regardless, there is nothing to stop you from using the action of your choice to trigger the piano sound of your choice, whether that piano sound is in another keyboard or a computer. You can get any combination you want, so I don't find it so bothersome that there's no one piece that does it, i.e. that someone might prefer the action of vendor A and the sound of vendor B. I mean, odds are, we would never all agree on which action and sound are best to begin with. So even if a company came out with the kind of model you and others are theorizing about, probably most of us would still complain about it and prefer some other action or some other sound. People don't even agree on which $50k grand piano sounds and feels best. So there is not a holy grail, there are countless individual holy grails... and the tools exist today for most of us to assemble something darn close to what we want, if we are so motivated. (Apart perhaps from the difficulty of the speaker issue, as discussed elsewhere.)

Originally Posted By: Nigeth
They focus on the pianist or piano enthusiast in the high end and they also sell real acoustic uprights and grands. A sufficiently good DP would cannibalize most of their high end market

The idea that Yamaha won't make the best DP they can because it will cut into their acoustic sales assumes that Yamaha considers their DP's competition to primarily be their own acoustic pianos, whereas I would think they would consider their main competition to be DPs made by other companies. (And they are certainly also competing against companies who would not have their own line of acoustics to "protect" as well, even if I were inclined to buy into that line of reasoning, which I'm not.)

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#2031823 - 02/12/13 12:44 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
scorpio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 529
Loc: Connecticut, USA
Imperfect is perfection! Acoustics and digitals have their own characteristics and idiosyncrasies. Acoustics are different from each other, digitals are different from each other; and definitely acoustics are different than digitals. There seems to be more differences than similarities in all subsets of pianos.

What makes a piano perfect? Is there one piano somewhere that is deemed the perfect piano that all others are trying to replicate? I don't know the answer.
_________________________
Kawai MP11 :: JBL LSR305 :: Focusrite 2i4 :: Pianoteq Standard

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#2031827 - 02/12/13 12:46 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: KataiYubi]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: KataiYubi
The big-3 are in an oligopoly, and largely survive not because of the objective quality of their products, but rather because of their reputation. They have the brainpower and engineering expertise to make their products far better, but no monetary incentive to do so because of low competition. As a result, their products are overpriced and evolve very slowly. Why should Yamaha/Kawai/Roland sound samples be of any lower quality than those of a firm such as Synthogy (the makers of Ivory II)? I'm sure Yamaha could blow Synthogy out of the water overnight if they decided to do so.


I think the difference is that the companies that can make the most sophisticated pianos at lowest cost (a combination of low-overhead low-manufacturing-cost software developers developing for high-volume low-cost hardware platforms like Apple and Dell, where you then supply your own keybed of choice) are in a situation where that approach provides obvious cost advantages relative to manufacturers of low-volume all-in-one custom-hardware manufacturers.

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#2031836 - 02/12/13 01:04 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Virginia, USA
The perfect piano is the one that inspires you to play. No more, no less whether it cost $500 or $250k. Dreaming of the perfect piano is akin to mental masturbation.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#2031875 - 02/12/13 02:14 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Kbeaumont]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 756
Originally Posted By: Kbeaumont
Dreaming of the perfect piano is akin to mental masturbation.
Isn't that what we do here. I mean this thread is a rehash of a recent one. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2031884 - 02/12/13 02:22 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Kbeaumont]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3716
Loc: Northern England.
"The perfect piano is the one that inspires you to play. No more, no less whether it cost $500 or $250k. . . "

Ya right there, man!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2031896 - 02/12/13 02:43 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
MVshabeer2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 86
A PERFECT DP mentioned in the OP is
- A DP where you get the FEEL that you are playing an AP.
- Where you don't get fatigued by the sampled sound.
- Lastly one that makes you happy & dont want to think "I should get a better DP" within a week.

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#2031908 - 02/12/13 03:03 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
scorpio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 529
Loc: Connecticut, USA
True. But each of us has a different response to those points. For some, the perfect digital piano already exists; while for others it will never exist.
_________________________
Kawai MP11 :: JBL LSR305 :: Focusrite 2i4 :: Pianoteq Standard

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#2032079 - 02/12/13 07:53 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 805
Loc: New England, USA
The perfect DP is the one you can enjoy today. Alas, enjoy the music now.
_________________________
My piano channel on YouTube: Link

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#2032084 - 02/12/13 07:57 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Amaruk]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9410
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Amaruk
The perfect DP is the one you can enjoy today. Alas, enjoy the music now.


Totally agree.

Stop analysing, start playing!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2032095 - 02/12/13 08:12 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
The DP will not be "perfect" until it wafts the smell of a 150 year old Steinway or (better yet) a 300 year old Cristofori.

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#2032353 - 02/13/13 09:05 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: poggler]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3716
Loc: Northern England.
Plus assosiated dog urine and cigar smoke associated with the aristocracy. . . .Hmmm. Nice!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2032381 - 02/13/13 10:05 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 780
Loc: Dorset, UK
And the sound of munching woodworms ................

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#2032410 - 02/13/13 10:55 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1772
Loc: Portugal
Woodworm, dog dirt, stale tobacco smoke, assorted hauntings and who knows what other delights. Perhaps you'll find them all here.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/one-of-a-kind-...=item35c2cbd6e6

...I do hope so.....but then I'm bad.


Edited by toddy (02/13/13 10:59 AM)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2032417 - 02/13/13 11:20 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Isn't the real culprit the thing called a speaker? As long as a digital piano transmits sound through a speaker, you'll never achieve the acoustic sound.

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#2032420 - 02/13/13 11:23 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: Fscotte]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3716
Loc: Northern England.
Yes, but they usually have two speakers or more. And we only have two ears . . . The pronounced stereo effect does seem to be lacking in todays DPs unfortumately. But if you pay out a lot of cash, things might be different .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2032433 - 02/13/13 11:39 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: peterws]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: peterws
Yes, but they usually have two speakers or more. And we only have two ears . . . The pronounced stereo effect does seem to be lacking in todays DPs unfortumately

Despite our having only two ears, a pair of stereo speakers is not sufficient to recreate a true 3D space, especially over a wide range of listening positions. Hence the need for things like center channel and surround speakers in movie and home theater systems.

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#2032453 - 02/13/13 12:30 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
There will never be a perfect DP. Even if they could, no manufacturer would ever make one because they will put the entire business..out of business :P
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

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#2032481 - 02/13/13 01:34 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: anotherscott]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 756
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: peterws
Yes, but they usually have two speakers or more. And we only have two ears . . . The pronounced stereo effect does seem to be lacking in todays DPs unfortumately

Despite our having only two ears, a pair of stereo speakers is not sufficient to recreate a true 3D space, especially over a wide range of listening positions. Hence the need for things like center channel and surround speakers in movie and home theater systems.
At least Yamaha has tried to address this issue. The samples might not be full but you have to believe they did sample in the four spots and have created the sound system to emulate the position of the mics.

I'm sure co's are only going to spend just enough money and just enough of research to get a new product to market. They're always saving something for the next product when they've milked every penny out of current model. You can't blame them in a world economy.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2032503 - 02/13/13 02:26 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: 36251]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3328
Originally Posted By: 36251
I'm sure co's are only going to spend just enough money and just enough of research to get a new product to market. They're always saving something for the next product when they've milked every penny out of current model. You can't blame them in a world economy.

If a company waited until everything was perfect, they would never ship anything. And technology continues to improve and get more cost-effective, so there's no foreseeable end point anyway. At some point, whatever business you're in, you have to come up with something feasible, cost effective, and marketable to ship based on what is available now, while you continue to work on new things.

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#2032521 - 02/13/13 03:05 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: 36251]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3716
Loc: Northern England.
Years ago (98) I bought this Yam CLP 820 in preference to a lot o` more expensive models because it had tremendous stereo sound. When I`d put it together and played it, each note seemed to be coming from a different place. Might not be how things are, but it sounded good and attracted a lot of interest in the restaurant where I used it. Had to change for a lighter (Kawai) console model. It was crap but I could carry it better. . . crazy isn`t it?
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2032540 - 02/13/13 03:34 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3838
Loc: North Carolina
anotherscott: I have to agree. Speakers are (for now) the biggest limiting factor.

The keybeds are adequate. (But if not, get an AG.)
The tone generation is okay. (But if not, run a suitable piano library on a PC.)
The amplifiers are adequate. (But if not, just use an external amp.)

But the speakers just can't seem to pass muster, even good quality external units.

Doesn't someone have a solution?

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#2032541 - 02/13/13 03:36 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
MVshabeer2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 86
I have a feeling that Yamaha's older models are built better.

I have an old PSR E403 keyboard back at home (made in china). Event though it's china built, the keys felt really good and steady. I never felt cheap plastic on that. no clicking sound either.

Recently I just checked the keyboard of its 3rd successor PSR E433. It's also china made. OMG the built quality is terrible. The keys felt really really cheap. I can hear that annoying clicking noise on every keys & buttons.

I also checked the S710/S910 models, their keys felt like the one I had on PSR E403.(Not the same but almost).

Now I have Yamaha MOX6. Inside it's a beast. But the built, huh: when I lift it from the table the side plastic caps bend. I will get a feeling that it is going to tear apart. The plastic is so cheap that it cant even hold together with screws.

So I believe as technology evolves built quality gets cheaper. Atleast Yamaha


Edited by MVshabeer2 (02/13/13 03:38 PM)

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#2032604 - 02/13/13 05:42 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: peterws]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1772
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: peterws
.....It was crap but I could carry it better. . . crazy isn`t it?


Yes, indeed. This is a nice summary of the way things are. I do not know why, but from this sentence I get an image of you going to the chip shop after the gig - with the piano. Did this ever happen? Or was it in the boot of the car?
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2032627 - 02/13/13 06:34 PM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: toddy]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3716
Loc: Northern England.
Ha ha you got that right! But that was in the old days with the band. Chippies were open `till 2,30am just for returning musicians.- Great days with the Hammond . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2032976 - 02/14/13 11:18 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: MVshabeer2]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Why pick on Digital Pianos??

The perfect acoustic has still not been made yet!

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#2052866 - 03/23/13 09:29 AM Re: How far is THE PERFECT DP from now? [Re: bennevis]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 515
Ummm, please define "perfect" http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/grin.gif

I have a karaoke player (or two) on various computers, I play around with various midi files derived from QRS rolls, chain them into play lists, shuffle play them, route the midi via loopbe to pianoteq, sometimes watch the keys go down and up, etc.

I am wondering if there is a market for an "all singing all dancing" player piano - for a nostalgia market.
QRS is still selling paper rolls, in fact there is a revival.

I think I might like a modern version of a 1920s style player piano complete with faux stained glass doors that cover an OPTICAL roll player (no need for vacuum pumps, hoses, etc.) the ability to copy to a terabyte hard drive - USB, web connection, MP3 file compatibility, .wav, whatever-all-else.

As "furniture" I think it would go over much as motorcycles without rear springing from the same era sell quite well (Hardly Does-it-run) to people trying to ride their grandfather's bike (dress in black and orange, wear peel_and_stick tattoos - the whole THANG).
Not about RIDING per se, about nostalgia.

Oh, sound quality ?
Does it HAVE TO sound like a 9 ft grand ?
How about a 1920s honky tonk ?

Bosendorfer sounds coming out of a cabinet like that would just sound [url=WRONGhttp://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/crazy.gif][url=WRONGhttp://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/crazy.gif][url=WRONGhttp://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/crazy.gif]WRONGhttp://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/crazy.gif[/url][/url][/url]

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