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#2032762 - 02/13/13 10:43 PM copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question
flash45 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 22
Hi everyone. I saw a mason hamlin today and I noticed that it had some copper strings with 3strings for one note (I hope I am explaining this right) and it made the transition to the steel strings seem seamless. Could I have this done to my piano?

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#2032787 - 02/13/13 11:39 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Probably could be done, the question is how well you want the alteration done and what do you hope to gain by doing it.

Modifying bi-chord wound to tri-chord wound properly would involve re-stringing, fabricating new bridge caps, modifying the hitch pins and the agraffes.
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#2032792 - 02/13/13 11:46 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
beethoven986 Online   content
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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3370
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Modifying bi-chord wound to tri-chord wound properly would involve re-stringing, fabricating new bridge caps, modifying the hitch pins and the agraffes.


And drilling another hole in the plate/pinblock, of course.
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#2032794 - 02/13/13 11:52 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3370
Originally Posted By: flash45
Hi everyone. I saw a mason hamlin today and I noticed that it had some copper strings with 3strings for one note (I hope I am explaining this right) and it made the transition to the steel strings seem seamless. Could I have this done to my piano?


As Ed has alluded to, it would be expensive. You could try hybrid scaling, which would entail replacing the notes near the break with either PureSound wire or probably Paulello type O wire and possibly replacing the bass strings. It's a much simpler way of going about this, as it would not require any modification of the bridge or plate, but not many technicians are familiar with this technique. You will have to find a technician with experience to evaluate the existing scale and make the appropriate changes. Ed happens to be one, and there are a few others on the forum, as well. Perhaps they will chime in.
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#2032802 - 02/14/13 12:10 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: flash45
Hi everyone. I saw a mason hamlin today and I noticed that it had some copper strings with 3strings for one note (I hope I am explaining this right) and it made the transition to the steel strings seem seamless. Could I have this done to my piano?

What kind of piano do you have?

ddf
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#2032807 - 02/14/13 12:21 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
What works for one design of piano may have different results for another design. Did you notice the odd bridge for the Mason & Hamlin, or the change in the length of the strings?
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#2032821 - 02/14/13 01:08 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Del]
flash45 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 22
Hi I have a A3from the 1920's

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#2032822 - 02/14/13 01:11 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: BDB]
flash45 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 22
Hi i didnt notice (look) but i may go back friday and check this out
Thanks for your information.

Regards

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#2032969 - 02/14/13 11:11 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Steinway A-3?
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#2032987 - 02/14/13 11:29 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: flash45
I saw a mason hamlin today and I noticed that it had some copper strings with 3strings for one note (I hope I am explaining this right) and it made the transition to the steel strings seem seamless. Could I have this done to my piano?
I think you are jumping to conclusions. The correct way to phrase your sentence would be: "I noticed that it had some copper strings with 3 strings for one note and it had a transition to the steel strings which was seamless."

If a seamless transition were achievable by simply using wound tri-chords, all pianos for the past 130 years would have had this feature.

A seamless transition is more the result of careful (and fortunate!) string, soundboard and scale design than simple number of wound strings.

So, to answer your question, depending on how it is done, wound tri-chords in your piano may be an improvement, or they may be a detriment, or they may make no noticeable difference. It is all in the design and execution.
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#2032991 - 02/14/13 11:35 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Silverwood Pianos Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4232
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Well,

Let’s have some English lesson shall we?

The transition of what? The OP’s sentence is ambiguous as it fails to describe what is being transitioned.

Quote:
it had a transition of sound to the steel strings which was seamless.


Maybe best to stick with piano technology.

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#2032999 - 02/14/13 11:49 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Upright Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
I seem to be a lucky guy doing something similar successfully without profound knowledge just by intuition and trial.

I restored a hundred year old baby grand about two years ago. This was my first piano project ever. Doing the restringing I had help from another piano technician optimizing the scaling. The transition from the wound bi-chords to the steel tri-chords was very noticeable though. The transition from the the bass bridge to the long bridge was very good. The first three notes were already wound bi-chords on the long bridge.

But the first few steel tri-chords were more percussive and had another sound compared to the bi-chors. This was getting better going up the scale. Some notes later, the tri-chords sounded very similar compared to the bi-chords.

So I switched the first 5 steel-tri-chords to wound tri-chords. I have now an almost completely seamless transition.

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#2033030 - 02/14/13 12:36 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
flash45 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 22
I have a steinway A3

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#2033032 - 02/14/13 12:41 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
The easiest way to get the trichords is to trade your piano for an A1.
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#2033066 - 02/14/13 02:08 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: BDB]
flash45 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 22
Trade my A3 in for an A 1? I don't think so!

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#2033083 - 02/14/13 02:52 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: flash45
Trade my A3 in for an A 1? I don't think so!

There are a few other things you might try short of this.

Find a technician familiar with piano string scales and with the characteristics of the lower breaking strength music wire (Paullelo)now available.

While this is not a perfect solution it is the least intrusive way to improve the bass-to-tenor transition on these pianos.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2033318 - 02/14/13 09:06 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Del]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have an A3 in my living room and there is no room for the third tuning pin if you were to convert the wound bi-chords to tri-chords-if that is what you were thinking of. The lowest plain tri-chords can have the tone improved by changing the wire type to Puresound stainless and Paulello type O wire.

Not something you want to try as a DYI in my opinion.

Where do you live?
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2033358 - 02/14/13 09:41 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
No, I wasn't thinking of converting anything to tri-chords that isn't already tri-chords. The bi-chords can easily be modified and the lowest tri-chords can be switched to different wire. Doesn't require any modifications to the string frame.

This may not make the bass-to-tenor transition perfectly seamless but it can be made be a lot less bad.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2033399 - 02/14/13 10:15 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
Sometimes, most often, the real success is in the bellywork and load.
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#2033400 - 02/14/13 10:15 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
_________________________
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Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#2033420 - 02/14/13 10:31 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Larry Buck]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2199
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Well, ... I clicked on the video thinking I was going to learn something ... uh ... about pianos. whistle

Serves me right. I've sidetracked enough threads here that I should ... uh, suffer!
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#2033462 - 02/15/13 12:14 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
My questions were for the OP; Flash45.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2033539 - 02/15/13 06:02 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: David Jenson]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Well, ... I clicked on the video thinking I was going to learn something ... uh ... about pianos. whistle

Serves me right. I've sidetracked enough threads here that I should ... uh, suffer!


I have digressed, I should apologize. This was far off topic.

Back to topic, scaling is important, although some of the balance we hear is most definitely in belly, bridge and load design.
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#2033979 - 02/15/13 10:07 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have a Steinway B with the top three notes of the overstrung section converted to wound tri-chord and then hybrid wire in the first several notes on the long bridge. The sound is glorious, rich, and full but you can still hear tone color change at the break because the strike ratio at top of the overstrung section is significantly higher than the notes above.

The B has some quirks in the scale but boy I do love the sound overall. The long A does not have the great strike ratio discontinuity over the break, so at sometime someone at Steinway understood this since the long A is a newer design.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2033983 - 02/15/13 10:25 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
Just to clarify, by "strike ratio," do you mean the speaking length compared to the length at which the string is struck by the hammer?
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#2034014 - 02/15/13 11:16 PM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Exactly that BDB.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2034055 - 02/16/13 01:20 AM Re: copper wound tri cord?? on a mason hamlin AA question [Re: flash45]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
It seems odd that there would be a big discrepancy. Strike point ratios were a part of piano design long before Steinway made his first piano.
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