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Interpreting this as a self-referential sentence I agree.

That was a joke.

In the '70ies Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Gustav Leonhardt started recording the Bach cantata's on "authentic" instruments. The orchestra consisted mainly of "regular" musicians that were willing to learn to play the period instruments. At first they tried an "authentic" temperament of the organ/harpsichord, but the instrumentalists were unable to play in tune with it. So in the end they compromised by recording everything in equal temperament.

Nowadays all "authentic" recording of the Bach cantatas are in some unequal temperament, and the musicians are all specialists and have learned how to play baroque temperaments.

This information indicates to me that instrumentalists not specifically specialized in baroque (or earlier) music have learned to tune to equal temperament so I don't see why throwing a piano in the orchestra would cause any difficulty.

As a solo flute performer you may be more sensitive, and I would be interested if you could elaborate on your experiences.

I occasionally play Bach sonatas on recorder accompanied by harpsichord or organ and find I have to change my fingering according to the way the particular keyboard is tuned.

Regarding Lord rxd's comments (he reminds me of Lord Melbury from the Fawlty Towers episode "A Touch of Class"): As flutes and violins play in the midrange I find it hard (hard, not impossible) to believe piano stretch would cause any problems. Perhaps for the piccolo and Wagner tuba.

Kees

Thank you for picking up on this and for your varied personal experiences, some agreeing that it is well within their experience, others that it was outside the realms of their experience.
My only point was that excessive sharpening is not necessary and that the piano is sharp enough already.

Now pick up on 'excessive' while I enjoy a leisurely breakfast.

I'm flattered with the likeness to Lord Melbury, Kees, I sometimes write in that sort of caricature. Thanks for spotting it. Fact, is, old chap, I've never, ahem, tuned a piano in my life.

As a trumpet player (only one major orchestra, lots of major commercial work) I was sometimes called to play for weddings in rooms from cathedrals to more intimate affairs. You know the sort of stuff, the usual voluntary or the other one. Always with organ but once with a string quartet. Now that was a totally different.
experience, intonationally. And not a piano in sight.

There was mention of contemporary piano tuning. I have been involved In a couple of Proms programs and recordings of pianos specifying unusual temperaments. On all occasions it was tune and attend, plus 2 tunings each piano to convert, many maintenance tunings as the designated pianos were ferried back and forth across town for rehearsals, etc. Two tunings back to equal Very costly to do it right.

I still get calls privately for unusual temperaments my name seems to have become synonymous with this. It has to be under the same circumstances and is cost prohibitive as a commercial proposition. The most overlooked parameters are permission from the hall or owners of the piano and time involved in a busy concert hall.
Speaking of stretch, I was called out to a Hamburg B that I remember from its glory days. Now sadly neglected. The top notes were non existsent because somebody had tuned them higher than their resonance points. Just bringing them down restored the sound. They did quite a good tuning but for the last octave +1/2.

Marty, do you ever listen to ancient orchestral recordings where the Picc is excreechiatingly sharp. sometimes the pianos were that way, too. Since recording came in, everybody started listening more closely. Those old cultural norms die hard. The concerto piano is at the front of the orchestra. It is instruments at the back of the orchestra that traditionally tuned sharp and played ahead of the beat for acoustical reasons. Extra stretching for a concert probably never was a good idea.

A piano might be chosen as an orchestral piano one day placed next to the winds
and chosen as a concerto instrument the next.
Who would jackleg around with the stretch on the day of a concert that might be broadcast round the world. There simply isn't the time, for starters. No. The work of my colleagues and I is heard by the Finest artists in all genres of the contemporary musical world. They are our mentors and arbiters. For us to listen to anybody else would be, well, what's that word?

Thank you all for taking me seriously enough to take issue with me.

Now that many concerts are broadcast here, a tuner thinking of extra stretch better look closely at microphone placement. that is what I mean by contemporary tuning habits. Yes, there is some fringe work going on and this site keeps me somewhat abreast of them but I immerse myself in mainstream contemporary tuning every day.

I now have one of the easiest tuning jobs in the world. Literally a walk in the park interrupted by tunings on some of the finest pianos in the world that were only tuned a few hours before by me or a close colleague and serviced every ten days by one of the finest concert techs in the world. Would I jeapordise that by putting into practice the outdated imaginations of anybody on a website?

Kees and rxd,

Performing instrumentalists (non-fixed pitch) or vocalists do not perform in ET, with or without "stretch." Through extensive training, both aural and academic, the concept of key color and differentiation becomes paramount. It is applied to all compositional periods, from Gregorian through this very minute. That is why the development of polyphony, the 12 tone scale, and its application to all eras of music, must be thoroughly understood for proper implementation.

What I considered so absurd was the statement that an orchestral flutist would consider that they played sharper, in pitch, when playing with piano accompaniment. This is simply not the case. It could also be a consideration that the overall "stretch" on a fixed pitch instrument is less than in an orchestra or chamber ensemble. Playing with a given keyboard instrument, with it's individual characteristics and tuning temperament, requires adjusting to that particular instrument. Playing "sharp" is not a given, and as a blanket statement is simply wrong.

Intonation should never be equated to temperament, but sadly, that is often the case. A piccolo playing sharp is merely poor performance technique derived from lack of skill by the player. It is not intrinsic to the instrument.

Keyed or valved instruments all have their own idiosyncrasies. Mastery of those instruments requires a thorough understanding of the 'givens' of the instrument. Once accomplished, the instrumentalist then adjusts pitch, at will, to the ensemble intonation and temperament within a given key.

So, in summation, I do not agree that ET is the basis for tonal structure in the training and development of instrumentalists and vocalists. ET is an adaption and compromise from the aural perception of just intonation. Piano tuners who do not accept any derivation from the harmonically impossible, mathematical division of an octave into twelve equal parts, misses the point of key differentiation.

If either of you would like my credentials, you are free to send me a PM.

Please excuse me interposing but wasn't this the essence of the original proposition?

Ian,

The original proposition was that a flutist would have to play at a higher pitch (sharp) with a piano, than with an orchestra. This being the result of "stretch" in ET tuning.

The statement you quoted was in reference to ensemble performance making adjustment to the given pitch and intonational reference as being fluid, and not static as with a fixed pitch instrument.

Marty, not being a flutist myself, how much variation in intonation on a given note is practical in the upper ranges of the instrument? Presumably a flute can cope with the extremes expected between different ensembles and stretch scenarios, but how easy is it for a flutist to cope without being too conscious of the effort.
Similarly, how much deviation from A-440 can be practically coped with?

Chris - Approximately a 1/8 step up or down is easy to accomplish across the range. On some notes, a 1/4 step is possible by "lipping" or using alternate fingerings, so you can pretty much play in all of the cracks. The flute naturally tends to go sharp in the highest octave and compensation is part of the learning curve.

The standard range of the flute is three full octaves, starting on C4 (middle C) up to C7. Advanced flutists generally play up to F7. A piccolo is voiced one octave higher, an alto flute is a fourth lower, and a bass flute is one octave below the concert flute. Additionally, there are many custom "odd-balls" floating around.

The piccolo is no longer voiced in Db, and the usage of the instrument all but disappeared by the mid 20th century.

Addendum -

Most quality flute builders now scale to A-442. If a flute pitched at A-440 is desired, it would need to be specified at time of order.

What is more to the point than how an instrument is pitched or played is how close the tolerances are to the pitch. Pianos are quite exact. Most other instruments, including voice, are nowhere near as close as a piano is.

Only if one believes that ET is as close to pitch as possible. In fact, it cannot be as it is an adaptation and compromise made based on just intonation and harmony.

Sorry, the laws of acoustical physics predate any keyboard instrument.

Thank you, Marty.

I've learnt a lot about the flute today. From the chapter on flutes in my book on musical instruments at breakfast and now in time for supper from your posts.

As for playing wind instruments in symphonies, piano concertos and chamber music I am musing about the skills of flutists and trumpeters. Do flutists regard pianists as an intransigent bunch of Johnnies Come Lately?

Jeez, I hope not. I'm a pianist, too!

(Though, the tale of Pan and Syrinx comes to mind and there is always the early satyrclavier.)

I think you were responding to me. What I meant about the tolerances is that no instrument plays any specific pitch exactly. There are minute variations in pitch, and those variations in a piano are smaller than in most other instruments. It has nothing to do with temperament.

Some of those variations are deliberate. That is what vibrato is. The mechanics that allow one to play vibrato prevent one from playing exactly at any one pitch.

Question: If instead of tuning A4=440, I tune it to 435; does the beat rates change
or do they remain the same as if it was 440?
Like F3 to A3, approximate 7 bps wide, 435 becomes less or more.
Thank you all.

Herr Weiss

BDB - The way you have described you original intention, I do agree with. Sorry if I misread what you wrote. I was thinking in the concept of the thread being "stretches and temperaments." That is why I specified ET.

A piano can be stable, but in ET it is not in tune. Our difference seems to be the entire concept of intonation.

Certainly an instrument can be out of tune and vibrato does not negate the perceived pitch of the tonal center. Even with vibrato, or other coloration techniques, the fundamental pitch is heard. It is either in tune, or not.

Consider also, the effect of vibrato is totally different on a string instrument, on a wind, or from the voice. It can be amplitude or pitch and that is totally dependent on the method of production.

Herr Weiss - Welcome to Piano World!

When you compare A-440 to A-435, it is a direct reference to beats per second or Hz. The octave A above your tuning would be A-870. Those pitches would then be divided into the 12 half-steps which form the basis of western tonal structure.

Each note on your piano would be proportionally different from the corresponding note on a piano tuned to A-440.

Hope this helps.

Thank you Minnesota Marty for your quick answer!
The reason I asked is that one of my pianos is a Upright from
the 1890's, New England #59529; and I'm afraid to practice on it
at A=440. So A=435 is a whole new ball game. Good to know.

Thank you once more. Cheers!

So, at A=435, F3 to A3 will NOT have 7 bps wide, correct?
Less or more?. I'll experiment with my ears open.
Good night!

I do not believe that you have a realistic notion of all of what being "in tune" might mean. You seem to want it to mean that a note is pitched arbitrarily close to some sort of theoretically pure relationship with any other note that it is played with. By that standard, nothing is "in tune." Even if you use as arbitrary a standard as "perceived pitch of the tonal center," nothing is in tune.

It is, as I said, all a question of tolerances. The tolerances on a piano are extremely small compared to almost all other instruments. In fact, many of the tempered intervals of a well-tuned piano may be closer to pure than the same intervals on other instruments where those intervals theoretically should be pure.

It will not have the same 7 bps wide as it would be in 440, and I am not going to do the math right now to say how much slower it should be. I will point out that 7 is just an approximation.