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#2035754 - 02/19/13 10:20 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
(btw, it's spelled Juilliard - just to save you from future awkward moments)
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#2035757 - 02/19/13 10:24 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music. Arpeggiation, asynchronization, rhythmic alteration, and tempo modification are the same exact techniques used by every symphony or opera conductor on earth. They would be laughed off the stage if they got up and did a literal interpretation.



Oh dear god, how did I miss that???? How ridiculous is this, now????? I don't even know where to start... why would you think that just because pianists refuse to follow your weird notions about playing, that somehow their goal is not to make music? I'm very confused.

Could you be so kind to give an example of orchestral piece, with the name of the conductor, who do this? Find a conductor who doesn't like following what is on the score. I'm very very very curious.

Awaiting your response to all my remarks -

AP
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#2035824 - 02/19/13 11:52 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Posts: 706
Pogorelich:

Addressing your point about other genres of music that composers wrote, I once again cite Neal Peres Da Costa's book "Off The Record: Performing Practices In Romantic Piano Playing." It goes into an exhaustive study/discussion regarding the development of arpeggiation. At the time I filmed my video, I had no knowledge of his work. However, since that time, he has enthusiastically endorsed my video.

I inlcude for your listening pleasure You Tube links of his Quintet performing what I consider to be stunningly beautiful chamber music, where the piano part is arpeggiated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uydnhCdU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJXTmfMK3wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZtsAXD_MM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1czQoO0JPQ

Finally, in regards Debussy, I refer you to his piano roll recording "Debussy, The Composer As Pianist," wherein he is playing his own music. He not only rolls practically every single chord, he even plays broken octaves.

Next, there are the two analog recordings, the first of which is "Ravel Conducts Ravel," which has four Debussy selections played by Marguerite Long. The next is the disc "George Copeland, The Victor Solo Recordings."

Both of these recordings show extensive arpeggiation and asynchronization of this composer's music. George Copeland was the only American to every study under Debussy, and he premiered several of his works. Marguerite Long was a personal friend of the Debussys, as well as one of his students.

In terms of evolution, Copeland (1882-1971) played his last recital (every single one of which included at least one selection from Debussy) in 1964. Marguerite Long (1874-1966) died at the age of 91, and played and taught the composer's music in this fashion for 70 years.

Copeland with the exception of two students, did not teach. However, one of them is still very much alive, and he has enthusiastically endorsed my video, and established its accuracy regarding how the music of Debussy was performed.

In terms of evolution, he is a 77 year old Avant-Garde composer who was a student of both Copeland and Elliot Carter when he was 15 years old, and later on Darius Milhaud at Mills College.

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#2035829 - 02/19/13 12:07 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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I think it's spelled Copland not Copeland and I encourage you to listen to Rachmaninoff conducting his own symphonies with the Philadelphia. Also you still didn't address my point about music changing with time. I guess it's a complicated subject.
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#2035843 - 02/19/13 12:32 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I think it's spelled Copland not Copeland

Aaron's last name was indeed Copland, but the previous post referred to George Copeland the pianist rather than Aaron Copland the composer.


Edited by fnork (02/19/13 12:33 PM)
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#2035863 - 02/19/13 01:05 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Woops that happens when one reads too fast. I totally didn't see that, apologies.
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#2035865 - 02/19/13 01:12 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Well yes the piano is arpeggiated but sounds extremely strange, and in the Brahms cello sonata the cello line couldn't really be heard...

I was talking about other genres such as string quartets and orchestral music. Or what about Brahms two piano works? That would sound kind of awful...
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#2035884 - 02/19/13 01:45 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
fnork Offline
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YOU might be talking about string quartets and orchestral works, but the discussion about arpeggiating chords and so on - that was a habit that concerned pianists, the piano being a chordal instrument, not just a melodic one. The allowances pianists of the past made would indeed in some cases be very unsuitable for string quartets, and nobody is claiming that quartets of the past performed in such a way. So let's keep the discussion to piano playing.
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#2035890 - 02/19/13 02:00 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Why? Music is music. Composers were influenced by other genres when it comes to the piano. I think it's very relative.
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#2035899 - 02/19/13 02:16 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why? Music is music. Composers were influenced by other genres when it comes to the piano. I think it's very relative.

....as were pianists. The practice of rolling chords probably had some of its origin in imitating orchestral sounds. For that reason and others, I think asking about the relation to other instruments and combinations is very relevant and helps get at this subject, but it appears to be a deeper and more analytic thing than Louis is inclined to do.

Another thing that's probably relevant is the history of design of keyboard instruments and in particular of the piano. A fellow named Mark Arnest (whom I happen to know from the Colorado amateur competition) wrote a very thoughtful and scholarly article looking at performance practices of the 19th century, including chord rolling and with much emphasis on it, and in a deeper and more open-minded way than what we're seeing here. He talks, among many other things, about the probable relation to the sounds of other instruments and the history of pianos. Louis would benefit from considering such additional factors, for various reasons including because he'd realize better the absurdity of how he's presenting it.

David Dubal likes pointing out that the piano is maybe the only 19th century thing that still takes pretty much exactly the form that it did then. The piano evolved a lot in its early years but has been pretty much constant since about 1880. Mark Arnest found that the practice of habitually rolling chords pretty much ended with people who came of age around that time, and he talks about why that might have been, with regard to these factors. Besides the fact that Louis is simply misrepresenting some supposed facts, which he is, the subject is just a lot more complicated than he seems to realize, and if he grasped more of it, he'd realize that there's a lot he's not taking into account and that he's way overstating things. Would he be interested to consider things like these, and that the practice of habitually rolling chords was a thing of a certain time and was related to these factors that were contemporary to that time, rather than that we have stupidly abandoned the practice and that teachers have been "teaching wrong"?

Let's see. smile

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#2035936 - 02/19/13 03:40 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Pogorelich:

I made the decision, early on, when I started finalizing this 13 year research project (two years ago) that I was not going to get bogged down in the Cartesian rationale associated with the Modern School of pianism. I would instead refer you to Dr. Kenneth Hamilton's book, "After The Golden Age: Romantic Pianism and Modern Performance."

It is an excellent primer on how we got from there to here. His first chapter is entitled "Great Tradition, Grand Manner, Golden Age," wherein he pretty much beats it to death in terms of what you call evolution.

However, the specific purpose of my discourse here is to expose as many people as I can to the manner in which the piano was played in the 19th century.

Just as any art teacher, or any drama teacher worth their salt exposes their students to as many styles and schools related to their art, so should every piano teacher do so, who wants to "Teach You Right."

Do I play Prokofiev the way I play Debussy? Of course, I do not. And, the same holds true for any other composer.

Is it my responsibility to let as many people know that Schubert, Chopin, Schumann and Brahms, Debussy, and Ravel did not write or play in a Modern School block chord fashion? As a social activist philosopher, yes it is.

And, if I step on more than a few toes in the process, that is not my concern.

No one would dream of going to any art museum and giving the paintings of the great masters a fresh coat of paint; nor would anyone get up onstage and perform Shakespeare in rap artist rhyme.

The fine art of classical music pianism is absolutely no different. Every piece of art, regardless of its genre or medium, has a specific signature/style indigenous to its original creation.

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#2035940 - 02/19/13 03:50 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Posts: 4528
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I think we are aware of the expressive vocabulary of the old masters, however I think your basic concept is wrong; you've simply interpreted it wrong. Also, you still haven't addressed the concept of music changing over time. The same music changing over time, not modern music being composed in a different way. I don't hear violinists sliding every second bar anymore, and that's kind of the equivalent of breaking everything. I think composers were pretty clear when they wanted something rolled... there is a notation for that. What you're talking about is a different, expressive tool which pianists employed. It's not done anymore because it's outdated and frankly doesn't sound good.


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/19/13 03:51 PM)
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#2035953 - 02/19/13 04:02 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
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Posts: 1735
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
you still haven't addressed the concept of music changing over time. The same music changing over time, not modern music being composed in a different way.

Regarding performance practices changing over time, here's a pretty relevant statement from 1948 from a fairly significant figure in 20th century music. I quoted him in a different thread as well:

“Today’s manner of performing classical music of the so-called ‘romantic’ type, suppressing all
emotional qualities and all unnotated changes of tempo and expression, derives from the style of playing
primitive dance music. This style came to Europe by way of America, where no old culture regulated
presentation, but where a certain frigidity of feeling reduced all musical expression. Thus almost
everywhere in Europe music is played in a stiff, inflexible metre - not in a tempo, i.e. according to a
yardstick of freely measured quantities. Astonishingly enough, almost all European conductors and
instrumentalists bowed to this dictate without resistance. All were suddenly afraid to be called romantic,
ashamed of being called sentimental...Why is music written at all? Is it not a romantic feeling which
makes you listen to it? Why do you play the piano when you could show the same skill on a typewriter?
(...) It must be admitted that in the period around 1900 many artists overdid themselves in exhibiting the
power of the emotion they were capable of feeling. (...) Nothing can be more wrong than both of these
extremes."


The man writing these words was the figure that pioneered first atonality and later 12-tone music, Arnold Schoenberg.


By the way - if there was a general trend moving away from some of these performance habits we've discussed, certainly not everyone followed this trend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCrsKGfJP_w


Edited by fnork (02/19/13 05:17 PM)
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#2036030 - 02/19/13 06:06 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
....the specific purpose of my discourse here is to expose as many people as I can to the manner in which the piano was played in the 19th century....

That's great -- and if you didn't make it appear you're trying to do way more than that, it would be just fine.

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#2036289 - 02/20/13 08:56 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 706
fnork:

Thank you for your inciteful comments and especially the Horszowski. It was just beautiful; the best I have ever heard that particular Nocturne played.

As far as how we got here, two things stick out in my mind. The first is that behind the scenes at the First International Chopin Competition in 1927, a young concert pianist named Rubinstein, who did not play rolled chords, saw to it that, from then on, no one would dare play this composer's music in this fashion.

Secondly, when he, Backhaus, Gieseking, Arrau, and Horowitz are out there recording/concertizing everything under the sun in the style of the new Modern School, and you have Harold Schonberg of the NY Times continually telling the whole world of their greatness, then that sends a very strong message.

Finally, (as with Horszowski), Marguerite Long, Adelina de Lara, and George Copeland, all of whom matriculated in Europe in the 1890's, all made recordings of Beethoven and Mozart played in the rolled chord fashion. They certainly could not have been the only three people taught to play this music that way.

Copeland learned it form Teresa Carreno, Long from Marmontel, and de Lara from Clara Schumann. Between the three of them, these great teachers taught thousands of students, who in turn taught tens of thousands more.

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#2036305 - 02/20/13 09:24 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: fnork

Regarding performance practices changing over time, here's a pretty relevant statement from 1948 from a fairly significant figure in 20th century music. I quoted him in a different thread as well:

“Today’s manner of performing classical music of the so-called ‘romantic’ type, suppressing all
emotional qualities and all unnotated changes of tempo and expression, derives from the style of playing
primitive dance music. This style came to Europe by way of America, where no old culture regulated
presentation, but where a certain frigidity of feeling reduced all musical expression. Thus almost
everywhere in Europe music is played in a stiff, inflexible metre - not in a tempo, i.e. according to a
yardstick of freely measured quantities. Astonishingly enough, almost all European conductors and
instrumentalists bowed to this dictate without resistance. All were suddenly afraid to be called romantic,
ashamed of being called sentimental...Why is music written at all? Is it not a romantic feeling which
makes you listen to it? Why do you play the piano when you could show the same skill on a typewriter?
(...) It must be admitted that in the period around 1900 many artists overdid themselves in exhibiting the
power of the emotion they were capable of feeling. (...) Nothing can be more wrong than both of these
extremes."



Yes, of course.. every music major has had to come across this quote at one point or another. And that's exactly what started happening in the 20th century, along with 20th century music being composed. It was the reaction to the romantic movement.

Are you saying that unless you roll chords everywhere, you will immediately sound like a typewriter; a soulless, dull endeavor to produce music? Because I disagree...

There are many things we can take from the old masters - particularly their wonderful sense of line, their incredible range of dynamics, the way they listened to everything. Why the rolled chords everywhere? Mind you, I don't think these people did it everywhere, like Mr. Podesta here seems to think.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2036312 - 02/20/13 09:37 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
fnork:

Thank you for your inciteful comments and especially the Horszowski. It was just beautiful; the best I have ever heard that particular Nocturne played.

As far as how we got here, two things stick out in my mind. The first is that behind the scenes at the First International Chopin Competition in 1927, a young concert pianist named Rubinstein, who did not play rolled chords, saw to it that, from then on, no one would dare play this composer's music in this fashion.

Secondly, when he, Backhaus, Gieseking, Arrau, and Horowitz are out there recording/concertizing everything under the sun in the style of the new Modern School, and you have Harold Schonberg of the NY Times continually telling the whole world of their greatness, then that sends a very strong message.

Finally, (as with Horszowski), Marguerite Long, Adelina de Lara, and George Copeland, all of whom matriculated in Europe in the 1890's, all made recordings of Beethoven and Mozart played in the rolled chord fashion. They certainly could not have been the only three people taught to play this music that way.

Copeland learned it form Teresa Carreno, Long from Marmontel, and de Lara from Clara Schumann. Between the three of them, these great teachers taught thousands of students, who in turn taught tens of thousands more.


Arrau studied with Krause, who studied with Liszt.

Backhaus studied with Francis Charles d'Albe who studied with Liszt.

Horowitz studied with Schnabel, who studied with Leschetizky who studied with Czerny.

Just like you said before, these people can be traced back to the composers. Well... as you also said, those three play in the "modern" fashion (whatever you think that is). Something doesn't quite work in your favour here.
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#2036319 - 02/20/13 09:54 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Ian_G Offline
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Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
Holy pedantry, Batman! What a sea of meticulous grammar and Unnecessary Capitalizations! Pogo has here the difficult task of storming a beach under fire of large, boring cannons. Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score. No amount of youtube links and gratuitous semicolons will change that. Vicissitudes of performance through the ages is something all performers should be mindful of, but this pronouncements from on high reek strongly of Not Being a Musician.

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#2036322 - 02/20/13 10:00 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1735
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Yes, of course.. every music major has had to come across this quote at one point or another. And that's exactly what started happening in the 20th century, along with 20th century music being composed. It was the reaction to the romantic movement.

That's not quite how the fellow I quoted would have put it - he saw himself and his music as the natural continuation of what had been going on in western classical music until that time. Schoenberg for one would never have wished dull, metrically inflexible and lifeless performances of his own works. Webern, who so carefully gave performance hints and suggestions for a performer of his piano variations, would most certainly have been extremely surprised to see that this work of his (as well as others) often were being interpreted literally and without inflections or emotions.


Quote:
Are you saying that unless you roll chords everywhere, you will immediately sound like a typewriter; a soulless, dull endeavor to produce music? Because I disagree...

There are many things we can take from the old masters - particularly their wonderful sense of line, their incredible range of dynamics, the way they listened to everything. Why the rolled chords everywhere? Mind you, I don't think these people did it everywhere, like Mr. Podesta here seems to think.

Well no, I added that particular quote more as a commentary on general performance traditions changing. I don't roll chords all over the place and I don't recommend anyone to do it - but under the hands of someone like Rachmaninoff, it can become a powerful tool that any pianist should consider using according to his or her own taste.

I posted some notable Rachmaninoff performances in this regard, but I somehow missed this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nya05t-iDL0

This was recorded in 1940, by the way.
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#2036324 - 02/20/13 10:10 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-6B8_Jj-o

Here is the Brahms e- with Serkin and Rostropovich - Serkin studied composition with Schoenberg.

Nice link, fnork - I'm familiar with it. I LOVE how he plays it!
(I've played the piece)

What he does is break the bass note with the melody occasionally... but doesn't roll all those solid chords. Except when it's written in, near the end.
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#2036330 - 02/20/13 10:19 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music.

Fml...
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Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2036331 - 02/20/13 10:20 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Ian_G]
fnork Offline
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Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1735
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score.

Well, that is interesting. For what reason then did Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach, Czerny, Daniel Gottlob Turk and countless others write treatises on how we are supposed to interpret what is written into the score? Did Wolfgang's daddy, Johann's son, Beethoven's pupil and numerous others have nothing of interest to say on this topic? Do people who knew Brahms, the Schumann's, Saint-Saens, Chopin, Liszt etc etc - do the recordings of these people have nothing to say of interest regarding performing manners of the past, and possibly performance manners of said composers?
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#2036347 - 02/20/13 10:51 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score.

Well, that is interesting. For what reason then did Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach, Czerny, Daniel Gottlob Turk and countless others write treatises on how we are supposed to interpret what is written into the score? Did Wolfgang's daddy, Johann's son, Beethoven's pupil and numerous others have nothing of interest to say on this topic? Do people who knew Brahms, the Schumann's, Saint-Saens, Chopin, Liszt etc etc - do the recordings of these people have nothing to say of interest regarding performing manners of the past, and possibly performance manners of said composers?


I'll take them in order:

1. Those people realized they weren't their son, father or teachers, and settled down on the cheaper real estate.

2. Nothing absolute.

3. Sure, but nothing from which one can or should extrapolate a rule or set of rules.

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#2036358 - 02/20/13 11:13 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Kuanpiano]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music.

Fml...


Yeah we apparently think the goal is to dress up in pink uniforms and dance around the instrument.
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#2036373 - 02/20/13 11:44 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 706
fnork:

Very well put, fnork. This is why I keep recommending Kenneth Hamilton's book, "After The Golden Age," as well as Neal Peres da Costa's Off The Record."

The titles of these two works are not by accident. "After the Golden Age" means what the piano sounded like before, and then how it got to where it is now.

"Off The Record" means just that. That is why the first chapter is entitled "Early Recordings: Their Value as Evidence." The OUP companion website has an extensive selection of recordings referencing this and the other chapters in the book.

Instead of spending countless hours pouring over treatises and journal articles, just get the two books and go to school. Hamilton spends fifteen pages with nine different cites on arpeggiation, and Peres da Costa's dedicates an eighty-eight page chapter to the subject.

Regarding Liszt's way of breaking chords, and quoting from Hamilton re: Claudio Arrau, "He (Martin Krause) would teach us several ways of breaking chords: to start slowly and then accelerate toward the highest note; or to make a crescendo to the hightest note; or to make a diminuendo; or to do it freely, with rubato. But always so broken chords would have a meaning coming from what went before."

But, the two things that Gieseking, Rubinstein, Arrau, and Backhaus all had in common were that they started concertizing in their teens or very early twenties, and they did not study with any teacher in adulthood. Martin Krause died when Arrau was fifteen, Rubinstein never had a lesson after the age of seventeen, Gieseking (Karl Leimer)started touring when he was twenty, and with the exception of a later brief coaching with d'Albert, Backhaus was on his own by the age of sixteen.

So, how did they learn, record, and play all of this great music? In that they all had phenomenal abilities in this area, they sight read it off the score. It explains a lot.

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#2036442 - 02/20/13 01:46 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Yes and they had to use their own judgment. Is that so terrible?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2036468 - 02/20/13 02:28 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 706
Pogorelich:

No, of course not. However, you just get up and play your jury at any major music school or conservatory in the U.S. and see how fast you get downgraded if you "use your own judgment" and play arpeggiated chords. Neal Peres da Costa's pianoforte students get downgraded at the Sydney Conservatorium when they play that way in their juries.

Nevertheless, a special shout out to "fnork" for introducing me to Mieczyslaw Horszowski. I have been researching his life and his recordings, and the man was a great pianist.

He played the Beethoven 1st concerto when he was 8 years old in 1901, and he taught until the week before his death in 1993 at the age of 100! His first teacher was his mother, who was a student of Karol Mikuli (Chopin), and his next was Leschetizsky.

Go to Amazon and listen to some of the samples in his recordings. The man's repertoire, which is referenced on Wikipedia, was pages in length. He played everything (including a ton of Beethoven and Mozart), and he did it in the old, excuse me, the "original style."

I once again list "fnork's" link of him playing the Chopin E Flat Nocturne in recital, at a very advanced age. He just nails it. It is beautiful.

Thank you, thank you "fnork."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCrsKGfJP_w

P.S. Oh, and by the way, the man taught at Curtis for years, with Richard Goode, Murray Periah, Steven de Groote, and Peter Serkin as some of his students.

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#2036525 - 02/20/13 04:42 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
I do play everything using my own judgment (including at adjudicated recitals), but my judgment doesn't tell me to arpeggiate every chord I see written.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2036528 - 02/20/13 04:46 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 706
It gets even better. Here is a link of "Horszowski in Japan," which is a portion of a live recital that he played at the age of 98!

He plays the Mozart Sonata K.332, which I have played for 40 years.

Does he asynchronize in the first movement? Yes, he does.

Does he very selectively arpeggiate in the slow movement? Yes, he does.

He turns a single note into a chord, just the way Carl Reinecke does in the video. (Horowitz used to do the same thing.)

Does he play the living daylights out of this piece? YES, HE DOES!

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eBOKCAXmOA

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#2036874 - 02/21/13 10:39 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grVHXLY5cM8

To each their own.

(I have to add that I did enjoy elements of Horszowski's too, he is a great great pianist)


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/21/13 10:43 AM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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