Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2034316 - 02/16/13 03:50 PM Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675

Top
#2034327 - 02/16/13 04:07 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
The research is all well and good but 'Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong' is a stupid statement.

Top
#2034335 - 02/16/13 04:23 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
debrucey:
Thanks for your input.

I am trying to get the national news media to feature this, and in their simplistic world, if your story does not have some kind of catchy "hook," they are not interested. That is the reason for the title. I have even been asked many times - what is your hook?

My first major teacher taught me for free for fifteen years, and he did so with love, dedication, and devotion. He did not teach me wrong.

Thanks again for your input.

Top
#2034531 - 02/17/13 12:17 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Look for a hook that you can defend. smile

Top
#2034659 - 02/17/13 09:43 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Mark_C]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Mark C:

I have Dr. Neal Peres Da Costa, Chair of the Early Music Unit, Sydney Conservatorium of Music; Dr. Clive Brown MA (Cantab), MA, DPhil (Oxon), Professor of Applied Musicology, School of Music, University of Leeds; and Dr. David Hunter, Music Librarian and Curator, Historical Music Recordings Collection Fine Arts Library, University of Texas, all of whom are world recognized authorities in historical performance practice, and all of whom have also enthusiastically endorsed the thesis in my video.

Please list your sources.

Top
#2034682 - 02/17/13 10:30 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Nobody is questioning your research, just your misleading, deliberately provocative and un-academic title.

Top
#2034690 - 02/17/13 10:42 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Your Mozart example just shows somebody who plays it in a baroque style - rolling everything. If you've ever played any Bach, there's tons of that written in. Most of this is a matter of taste (especially the Chopin ballade) and matter of rubato - I'm not so sure it was a "standard practice" back then - otherwise how would you explain the music they wrote for other instruments? Their orchestral stuff, string quartets? The chords and everything seem to be "together" in there... Also how about the way these pianists played other things? Schnabel's Waldstein sonata comes up to mind. Or anything else. I don't recall Rachmaninoff ever doing that..

The Brahms 117/1... I'm not sure what you're hearing there, but all I hear is expressive occasional breaking of the bass with the melody, which was common back then, and rubato typical of that time.

But consider for a second the idea that this was actually done back then. Music, like any concept, changes with time. Our realization of it changes with time. This is why when the Ravel quartet was premiered, the quartet played a famous repeated passage with extreme slides, every time that came up. It makes today's listener cringe or laugh (as I witnessed the reaction of the audience in a lecture setting while the recording was played). Music evolves with time, and it changes. Just like our instrument has evolved and changed with time. We don't restrict ourselves by playing baroque music on clavichords, do we?

Sorry, I just really don't think you have anything to make people take you seriously.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2034698 - 02/17/13 10:58 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6074
Loc: St. Louis area
None of my teachers ever discussed this aspect other than "tricks", if you will, to bring out the melody. I've never had a teacher criticize my decision to arpeggiate a chord. I think your premise is flawed in the sense that it presupposes something in particular is being taught that really isn't.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2034710 - 02/17/13 11:29 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
I have....

If you look up the word "incorrigible," you should recognize it well. ha

You have this pattern of answering things with stuff that doesn't at all address what has been said, and you've done it again. On the threads where you talked about the Schumann movement, you went one better: you disappeared completely when it was pointed out that your basic premise was simply wrong -- that it had been a failure of your ear and your eye, and (apparently) a lack of being able to take seeing that you might need to go back to a drawing board.

Your sources have nothing to do with the things that are being criticized on here, and don't help you. You cited "sources" in answer to what I said about the "hook." You don't really think they have anything to do with giving you that hook, do you? And BTW as was pointed out on one of the other threads, you also have the ability to cite sources incorrectly, and even to get the thrust of a brief quote completely backwards.

If you want to be someone who can break new ground, and who can meaningfully present and defend the ground in discussions, whether here or on TV or elsewhere, in addition to changing some of how you present it you need to let yourself have a better way of addressing what is said to you.

Good luck. You'll need plenty.

Originally Posted By: debrucey
Nobody is questioning your research....

Actually we are. He sometimes cites things that just aren't there, and he can grossly misinterpret what's there.

Top
#2034754 - 02/17/13 01:04 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Pogorelich:

Thank you for you comments.

Regarding Rachmaninoff, actually the first composer I every heard extensively arpeggiate chords was this great artist. In my score of the 2nd Piano Concerto, I have marked many a chord, mostly occurring, but not always, on the first beat of a measure. This was taken from many hours of listening to his recording of this great work.

Further, Earl Wild's recording of this piece shows much of the same arpeggiation. Mr. Wild's knowledge of this composer's music was considered by most to be encyclopedic.

I telephoned hm at his home to ask him about his recording of the 3rd concerto, which showed cuts in the third movement. He told me that he had discussed this along with other concepts and changes regarding these concertos with the composer personally, and that they had his approval.

A good example of extensive arpeggiation of Rachmaninoff in his solo music can be found in the recording (London)"Rachmaninov Plays Rachmaninov." Starting with the "Elegie in E Flat Minor, he uses what could best be described as a wide roll. Most of the other selections illustrate the same thing.

In terms of the Brahms Op. 117 #1, I refer you to two recordings, the first of which is included in Carl Friedberg's recording "The Brahms Schumann Tradition"(Marston). With the exception of the Paganini Variations, he personally studied the entire Brahms piano repertoire under the composer.

The next is Adelina de Lara's recording included in the 6 CD box set (Pearl), "The Pupils of Clara Schumann." She was a longtime friend of Brahms and was personally coached by him when he would come to visit Madamme Schumann and her students.

Both of these great artists arpeggiate practically every single chord. And, these non-evolutionary recordings were both made in the early 1950's.

Top
#2034769 - 02/17/13 01:24 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
As I mentioned in another thread(which I can't seem to find now), although Rachmaninov did arpeggiate chords sometimes(his Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 No.2 has many examples), I also think there were many other pieces where he didn't do any or at most did very minimal arpeggiation.

I've listened to this performance of his Elegy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vYYcjDh3s

several times and hear a handful of arpeggiations in the entire piece. In the other thread I also mentioned his recording of Carnival, the Funeral March from Chopin's Sonata No.2, Bach-Rachmaninov Gavotte and others as having extremely minimal if any arpeggiation.

To my thinking and listening experience, Paderewski would be an example of a pianist who used extensive arpeggiation.



Edited by pianoloverus (02/17/13 01:35 PM)

Top
#2034793 - 02/17/13 02:20 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Doesn't mean a solid chord should never be played solid. That's a pretty ridiculous statement. What you're hearing is an expressive feature, not a standard practice.

Also you didn't address my other point.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2034796 - 02/17/13 02:29 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: pianoloverus]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
pianoloverus:

First, my inference was that Rachmaninoff arpeggiated most frequently when he was playing his own stuff or his transcriptions of other composer's music.

I deliberately shy away from listing Paderewski as an example of arpeggiated playing. Accordingly, I am enclosing for your perusal You Tube links to a list of other major pianists.

Thanks.

LHP

Additional Examples (Artist, Teacher, Work, Youtube video)

1) Emil von Sauer (Liszt, Rubinstein) - Beethoven Sonata Op. 13, Slow Mvt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbG-t66EL08

2) Theodore Leschetizky (Czerny) - Mozart Fantasia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbdwDS23lZo

3) Josef Hoffman (Rubinstein) - Mendelssohn Rondo Capriccioso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9T_hx2-5Wo

4) Olga Somaroff (Rubinstein) - Brahms Intermezzo op. 117, #2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVqG7k13SrY

5) Teresa Carreno (Mathias) - Chopin G Minor Ballade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SCoheEblp0

6) Alfred Cortot (Descombes) - Chopin Waltz in A Flat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ja7b-d6LQ

7) Adelina de lara (Schumann) - Schumann Kinderszenen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWutTfXvuW8

8) Eugen d'Albert (Liszt) - Liszt Libestraume

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svH5a86d0Vc

9) Marguerite Long (Marmontel) - Debussy Arabesque #1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzhaPbVlZGQ

10) Moriz Rosenthal (Mikuli, Liszt) - Chopin Sonata in B Minor, 3rd Mvt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWcmp6qIC9g&feature=relmfu

11) Claude Debussy - La plus que lente

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir8snfWIU2M

12) Maurice Ravel - Miroirs, Oiseaux triste

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDIAnwjFVVA

13) Ignaz Paderewski ( Leschetizky) - Debussy, Reflet dans l'eau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c_yZPIqoz0

Top
#2034821 - 02/17/13 03:23 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
pianoloverus:

First, my inference was that Rachmaninoff arpeggiated most frequently when he was playing his own stuff or his transcriptions of other composer's music.

I deliberately shy away from listing Paderewski as an example of arpeggiated playing. Accordingly, I am enclosing for your perusal You Tube links to a list of other major pianists.
I don't have any doubt about most of the pianists you listed about using arpeggiating, but I do have doubts about Rachmaninov even in his own works. In particiular, the Elegy recording I posted which you gave as an example of his use of arpeggiation seems to contain virtually none. Also his recording of the Bach-Rachmaninov Gavotte has virtually no arpgeggiation.

Why do you shy away from listing Paderewski?

Top
#2034849 - 02/17/13 04:11 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: pianoloverus]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
pianoloverus:

The roll in the Elegie is a slight more broken chord roll, whereas in the following C Sharp Major Prelude, it is a hard wide roll. At the end, he is rolling practically every chord.

Plus, for those out there who think that a piano roll piano cannot play a block chord, the last seven measures of the recording of this piece should put that myth to rest. Rachmaninoff alternates between rolled and block chords until the end.

The reason I do not recommend Paderewski is that the quality of his early recordings is very poor, and they sound clunky. Further, everyone who is an afficionado of the Modern School (German Tradition) points to these as sloppy playing. And therefore, this is the reason one should not play in this manner.

It is much better to listen to analog recordings of Rosenthal, de Lara, or Friedberg as good examples of very high quality arpeggiated playing. Also, I just recently discovered a stunningly beautiful recording of the Debussy Reverie by Harold Bauer. He premiered the Children's Corner Suite.

Finally, there is the movie recording of a very old Paderewski playing the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody #2. It is not clunky, and there are probably only a few people on this earth today who could play it any better. And, it is with rolled chords.

I list for you those two links.

LHP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rBZB_RaJVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdHATFk6AAA

Top
#2034852 - 02/17/13 04:24 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
pianoloverus:The roll in the Elegie is a slight more broken chord roll, whereas in the following C Sharp Major Prelude, it is a hard wide roll. At the end, he is rolling practically every chord.
But my point was on the Elegy recording I posted, to my ears, he doesn't play more than a handful of arpeggiated chords in the entire piece although there are hundreds of opportunites to do so. Thus I don't see how you can say he arpeggiates chords in that piece. I'd say he plays his own Elegy in a style similar to pianists of today. Any arpeggiating, asynchronization, or rubato is so minimal as to be almost nonexistent. In my view Rachmaninov is not a good example of the style pianists often employed in the early at of the 20th century.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/17/13 07:54 PM)

Top
#2034933 - 02/17/13 07:16 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Also you didn't address my other point.

He doesn't address what's inconvenient or what he just can't without having to rethink something.

Top
#2035159 - 02/18/13 08:52 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Brendan Online   content


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5289
Loc: McAllen, TX
I like how the title accuses my teachers of not knowing what they're doing even though my teacher as far back in undergrad told me about this performance practice and we both agreed that, unlike other performance practices such as improvisation in Mozart and Bach on repeats, it's largely tedious and uninteresting. laugh
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

Top
#2035205 - 02/18/13 10:59 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Louis: Do you have it in you to say if you're getting something from all this?

Unless you do, you better hide totally and not try to unveil this to any larger public, because you'll be terribly embarrassed. If you do have it in you, you have a chance.

Top
#2035286 - 02/18/13 01:40 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: pianoloverus]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
As I mentioned in another thread(which I can't seem to find now), although Rachmaninov did arpeggiate chords sometimes(his Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 No.2 has many examples), I also think there were many other pieces where he didn't do any or at most did very minimal arpeggiation.

I've listened to this performance of his Elegy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vYYcjDh3s

several times and hear a handful of arpeggiations in the entire piece. In the other thread I also mentioned his recording of Carnival, the Funeral March from Chopin's Sonata No.2, Bach-Rachmaninov Gavotte and others as having extremely minimal if any arpeggiation.

To my thinking and listening experience, Paderewski would be an example of a pianist who used extensive arpeggiation.


Quote:
But my point was on the Elegy recording I posted, to my ears, he doesn't play more than a handful of arpeggiated chords in the entire piece although there are hundreds of opportunites to do so. Thus I don't see how you can say he arpeggiates chords in that piece. I'd say he plays his own Elegy in a style similar to pianists of today. Any arpeggiating, asynchronization, or rubato is so minimal as to be almost nonexistent. In my view Rachmaninov is not a good example of the style pianists often employed in the early at of the 20th century.

I haven't had much time to answer this stuff but the entire argument is rather questionable so I didn't feel like bothering. In any case: the point being brought up is that Rach, as most other pianists of his time, DID arpeggiate and roll chords when he wanted to, it was a natural part of his musical vocabulary and he employed it whenever he wanted to. The Chopin Waltzes show tons of examples - note the the notorious Piu lento secion in op 64/2 for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xxxbu-75fc#

The pieces you are giving as examples are quite dubious - we're talking a funeral march and a bach gavotte among other things. You won't find a common trend among early 20th century pianists of arpeggiating chords in those pieces - but while we're at that funeral march, there's a quite massive surprise waiting after the Db major section. Would a pianist today dare to re-write Chopin in such a way? As for rolled chords in that particular piece, better check the Trio section of the scherzo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xl7IzJ34gyM#t=65s
You'll hear some nice asynchronization and rolled chords in the 2nd theme of the op 47 ballade too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DzDYbIL2alE#t=132s

Clearly, Rachmaninoff was no Paderewski in these matters, and why would he be? The point is that he had this in his musical vocabulary, he made use of it, and nowadays it is practically gone. To say that "some pianists from the earlier part of the 20th century played quite closely to the style typical of today's performers" with people like Rachmaninoff in mind (which you did in another thread) is quite a statement - apart from things already mentioned there were numerous aspects of his playing that seem unthinkable today. Just imagine someone distorting Chopin's text in such a way in the funeral march today, or someone distorting the rhythm in such a way in the 3rd scherzo, in a Chopin competition today!

And as for the Elegy you keep coming back to, one doesn't need to listen further than to the 2nd melody note in search for asynchronization. Since we can follow the score in the video, I also noted quite a few things - added ornaments, doing the opposite dynamic comparing to what's written (before the piu mosso), flexible rhythmic treatment with dotted rhythms (8th-notes turning into 16ths etc), changed notes, not to mention that he DOES arpeggiate most bass octaves in the climax section. I also wonder who would agree with that his rubato is so minimal that it's almost nonexistent...


Edited by fnork (02/18/13 01:50 PM)
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2035310 - 02/18/13 02:31 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
As I mentioned in another thread(which I can't seem to find now), although Rachmaninov did arpeggiate chords sometimes(his Chopin Nocturne Op. 9 No.2 has many examples), I also think there were many other pieces where he didn't do any or at most did very minimal arpeggiation.

I've listened to this performance of his Elegy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vYYcjDh3s

several times and hear a handful of arpeggiations in the entire piece. In the other thread I also mentioned his recording of Carnival, the Funeral March from Chopin's Sonata No.2, Bach-Rachmaninov Gavotte and others as having extremely minimal if any arpeggiation.

To my thinking and listening experience, Paderewski would be an example of a pianist who used extensive arpeggiation.


Quote:
But my point was on the Elegy recording I posted, to my ears, he doesn't play more than a handful of arpeggiated chords in the entire piece although there are hundreds of opportunities to do so. Thus I don't see how you can say he arpeggiates chords in that piece. I'd say he plays his own Elegy in a style similar to pianists of today. Any arpeggiating, asynchronization, or rubato is so minimal as to be almost nonexistent. In my view Rachmaninov is not a good example of the style pianists often employed in the early at of the 20th century.

I haven't had much time to answer this stuff but the entire argument is rather questionable so I didn't feel like bothering. In any case: the point being brought up is that Rach, as most other pianists of his time, DID arpeggiate and roll chords when he wanted to, it was a natural part of his musical vocabulary and he employed it whenever he wanted to. The Chopin Waltzes show tons of examples - note the the notorious Piu lento secion in op 64/2 for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xxxbu-75fc#

The pieces you are giving as examples are quite dubious - we're talking a funeral march and a bach gavotte among other things. You won't find a common trend among early 20th century pianists of arpeggiating chords in those pieces - but while we're at that funeral march, there's a quite massive surprise waiting after the Db major section. Would a pianist today dare to re-write Chopin in such a way? As for rolled chords in that particular piece, better check the Trio section of the scherzo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xl7IzJ34gyM#t=65s
You'll hear some nice asynchronization and rolled chords in the 2nd theme of the op 47 ballade too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DzDYbIL2alE#t=132s

Clearly, Rachmaninoff was no Paderewski in these matters, and why would he be? The point is that he had this in his musical vocabulary, he made use of it, and nowadays it is practically gone. To say that "some pianists from the earlier part of the 20th century played quite closely to the style typical of today's performers" with people like Rachmaninoff in mind (which you did in another thread) is quite a statement - apart from things already mentioned there were numerous aspects of his playing that seem unthinkable today. Just imagine someone distorting Chopin's text in such a way in the funeral march today, or someone distorting the rhythm in such a way in the 3rd scherzo, in a Chopin competition today!

And as for the Elegy you keep coming back to, one doesn't need to listen further than to the 2nd melody note in search for asynchronization. Since we can follow the score in the video, I also noted quite a few things - added ornaments, doing the opposite dynamic comparing to what's written (before the piu mosso), flexible rhythmic treatment with dotted rhythms (8th-notes turning into 16ths etc), changed notes, not to mention that he DOES arpeggiate most bass octaves in the climax section. I also wonder who would agree with that his rubato is so minimal that it's almost nonexistent...
There are some examples of rolled or aroeggiated chords(RC), asynchronizaton(A), extreme rubato(ER) in the examples you mentioned but, in general, I think few compared to many of the pianists of the early 20th century(for example most of the other recordings posted by the OP). To my ears the Elegy has virtually no RC, A or ER, the Schumann Carnival virtually none, he Bach-Rachmaninov virtually none, the middle section(or any part)of the Funeral March movement virtually none, the Chopin Waltzes only in the middle section of the C# minor out of the several waltzes, etc. The only pieces where I would agree with you about significant use of rolled chords are the Chopin D flat Nocturne and middle section of the Waltz C# minor Waltz.

I think many other pianists of his time use RC, A, and ER to an extent that makes any use of these by Rachmaninov seem rather small.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/18/13 03:21 PM)

Top
#2035312 - 02/18/13 02:43 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
fnork:

Thank you for your inciteful and very well thought out comments/analysis.

As pointed out recently by Dr. Ingrid Pearson of the Royal College Of Music, in her October journal article in "Performance Practice Review," "historical performance is now an essential component of musical training and education. Successful performers must be able to seamlessly function across the widest possible range of musical styles, accommodating an equally wide gamut of tastes, both individually and collectively."

I enclose the link for the entire article.
http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol17/iss1/5/

My point in all of this is to broach this subject to not only all pianists, but also to all those in the general public who have had any experience with the piano. History throughout the world is considered one of the most important subjects that can be experienced and taught. While we in the U.S. barely know anything about the history of anything.

And, as pointed out by musicologist Dr. Charles Roeckle, former Dean Of The College Of Fine Arts UT Austin, who was my faculty advisor "If this were “old news,” one would encounter more teaching and performing that incorporated these ideas. Of course, not everyone who knows about it will support the notion."

Finally, as far as your incite into the lack of rubato by Rachmaninoff, I noticed some time ago that instead of an Earl Wild style rubato, I find that this man judicially and seamlessly made extensive use of ritards and accelerandos.

Thanks once again.

LHP

Top
#2035394 - 02/18/13 05:30 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: debrucey
The research is all well and good but 'Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong' is a stupid statement.
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
My first major teacher taught me for free for fifteen years, and he did so with love, dedication, and devotion. He did not teach me wrong.
If it doesn't apply to you, why would you assume it applies to anyone else? Change the title. Funnily enough, I think more people would examine your work with an open mind if your title did not imply that yours is closed.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#2035398 - 02/18/13 05:40 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: currawong]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: debrucey
The research is all well and good but 'Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong' is a stupid statement.
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
My first major teacher taught me for free for fifteen years, and he did so with love, dedication, and devotion. He did not teach me wrong.
If it doesn't apply to you, why would you assume it applies to anyone else? Change the title. Funnily enough, I think more people would examine your work with an open mind if your title did not imply that yours is closed.
He's already explained why he chose that title...he was told he needed a hook.

I think the posts on this thread have proved it's an effective hook in terms of getting attention but, as others have pointed out, I agree it has the big flaws of being not true and perhaps offensive.

A video with a different title would probably have gotten a better reaction especially on a site like PW. Also, just saying that this was a performance style of that time rather than claiming it was a better way of playing or that this information is some new discovery would be more accurate IMO.

Top
#2035416 - 02/18/13 06:16 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Would a title such as "Have our piano teachers taught us wrong?" maybe be less offensive?

I remember in writing classes, teachers/professors discussed how having a title that is radical/attention grabbing is a good thing, though of course, there still is a line.

I personally don't find the title offensive as a statement like that, though it does prompt me to want to challenge in argument, instead of do original research in a less biased manner. That's how I feel.

Unrelated, one of the best titles to an article I've ever seen is "What's in Your Butt?" And the article was about cigarettes. It was an interesting read; one I would have not read if I hadn't been so hooked by the title!

Top
#2035434 - 02/18/13 06:41 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Orange Soda King:

There is a strange trend developing here, in terms of the last two threads. And, that is a basic level of respectful discourse. Yours' is the second.

In terms of my philosophical writings, I spent the better part of the 1990's trying to get published, doing everything according to Hoyle. Then, I wrote an Op-Ed in twenty minutes, and it made print.

A man by the name of Albert Einstein published, as part of his Theory Of Relativity, "That a given reality exists within a given frame of reference."

You understand that, and probably much more.

Thank you for your suggestion.

LHP

Top
#2035577 - 02/19/13 12:29 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: fnork
[...] The point is that he had this in his musical vocabulary, he made use of it, and nowadays it is practically gone. [...]

[...] And as for the Elegy you keep coming back to, one doesn't need to listen further than to the 2nd melody note in search for asynchronization. Since we can follow the score in the video, I also noted quite a few things - added ornaments, doing the opposite dynamic comparing to what's written (before the piu mosso), flexible rhythmic treatment with dotted rhythms (8th-notes turning into 16ths etc), changed notes, not to mention that he DOES arpeggiate most bass octaves in the climax section. I also wonder who would agree with that his rubato is so minimal that it's almost nonexistent...


"Musical vocabulary." Well said, fnork! Not only do we have a vocabulary, we also have a voice, a dialect, and a STYLE! What I like about what you point out (and what I wonder if Louis is trying to get at) is that it is more important to find the music in a piece than it is to be religiously tied to the score.

That said, I think, ideally, it is critical to learn a score exactly as it is written to see what it says. I am lately of the opinion that one must wrestle with the score exactly as indicated by the engraver to make sure one understands its meaning as rendered by the editorial chain that ends at the printing press. However, I have lived most of my life as a sloppy reader, and the music still comes out--sometimes with broken chords or grace notes where none are indicated but where the spirit moves.

Perhaps our teachers taught us right, but there is room to maneuver in all of it.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2035711 - 02/19/13 08:22 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Cinnamonbear:

Praise Jesus! There is intelligent life at Piano World afterall.

First, citing one more source, which is Dr. Rigbie Turner, former Curator of Original Manuscripts at Pierpont Morgan Library, there is no one authentic Urtext score of any piece of music.

Many pieces were hand copied by students even before they went to the printer for the first time. Next, most composers made changes to what came back from the printer. Some of these have made it to today, and some have not.

Beethoven was pressured to submit his score for the 4th Piano Concerto because a representative from his publisher noticed that by following him on tour that he kept changing things around when he went from city to city.

Debussy was notorius for marking up his published scores with red, blue, and green pencil. And, returning to Beethoven, if you are fortunate enough to visit Pierpont Morgan, you will not see words like "espressivo" on any of his manuscripts. Earl Wild told me in one of our conversations that the performance style in Beethoven's time, in terms of rhythm, was to play at an even tempo, nothing like what Artur Schnabel did based on his rendering of "the score."

As stated in the video re: Dr. Kenneth Hamilton, the score was meant to be a guide. If you wanted to know how it was supposed to go, you studied the piece under the composer, or one of their teaching assistants.

So, when Maurice Hinson states that Olga Samaroff instructed him to pay meticulous attention to the score, just pull up one the extra examples listed above of her recording of the Brahms Op. 117 #2.

She learned the piece from her fellow faculty member at Julliard, Carl Friedberg, who learned it from Johnny Brahms. And, if you can find any written score of that piece which shows the extensive arpeggiation and asynchronization that she demonstrates in this rendering, then you post it on Piano World, and while you are at it call the Associated Press, because you will have made history.

Thank you, thank you, thank you "Cinnamonbear." You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music. Arpeggiation, asynchronization, rhythmic alteration, and tempo modification are the same exact techniques used by every symphony or opera conductor on earth. They would be laughed off the stage if they got up and did a literal interpretation.

Does this mean that anything goes when learning a particular work - of course not! However, once all of the wrong notes are corrected, and any improper micro-rhythms or dynamics are straightened out, then the task ahead is to have the student hear in their mind's ear what the composer heard in theirs, and then to re-create that beautiful music.

Top
#2035749 - 02/19/13 10:05 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
I do not know why I keep getting the number wrong on the Brahms selection that I cite. I play both of them, but the correct cite should be Brahms Intermezzo Op. 117 #1.

My apologies. Nevertheless, the "A" section of the #2, sounds very different when you asynchronize the left hand bass note, and the "B" section sounds very rich and warm when arpeggiated.

LHP

Top
#2035752 - 02/19/13 10:11 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta


Praise Jesus! There is intelligent life at Piano World afterall.


Yes and sadly, you are not part of it. You need to stop with this rolled chord nonsense. People will laugh at you.

You never addressed two of my points: what about the music composers wrote for other instruments? Orchestral stuff, string quartets? Should we go around every major string quartet and tell them their teachers/coaches taught them wrong? That every chord they have together has to be played sloppy, as if they can't play together? That ought to be easy enough to do! All you have to do is not listen! And what about the fact that music changes with time? You never answered that. I don't think you know what to say. Do we have to follow ancient customs even when we know they're ridiculous, just because they're ancient customs? I don't think we cut off somebody's arm for stealing anymore.................

Anyway, speaking of Beethoven and Debussy - those are two of the most severe examples of composers who wanted EVERY little detail to be followed in the score. And to not do so is not only disrespectful, but foolish as well. Bartok was very particular too, I think.


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/19/13 10:17 AM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035754 - 02/19/13 10:20 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
(btw, it's spelled Juilliard - just to save you from future awkward moments)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035757 - 02/19/13 10:24 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music. Arpeggiation, asynchronization, rhythmic alteration, and tempo modification are the same exact techniques used by every symphony or opera conductor on earth. They would be laughed off the stage if they got up and did a literal interpretation.



Oh dear god, how did I miss that???? How ridiculous is this, now????? I don't even know where to start... why would you think that just because pianists refuse to follow your weird notions about playing, that somehow their goal is not to make music? I'm very confused.

Could you be so kind to give an example of orchestral piece, with the name of the conductor, who do this? Find a conductor who doesn't like following what is on the score. I'm very very very curious.

Awaiting your response to all my remarks -

AP
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035824 - 02/19/13 11:52 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Pogorelich:

Addressing your point about other genres of music that composers wrote, I once again cite Neal Peres Da Costa's book "Off The Record: Performing Practices In Romantic Piano Playing." It goes into an exhaustive study/discussion regarding the development of arpeggiation. At the time I filmed my video, I had no knowledge of his work. However, since that time, he has enthusiastically endorsed my video.

I inlcude for your listening pleasure You Tube links of his Quintet performing what I consider to be stunningly beautiful chamber music, where the piano part is arpeggiated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uydnhCdU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJXTmfMK3wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZtsAXD_MM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1czQoO0JPQ

Finally, in regards Debussy, I refer you to his piano roll recording "Debussy, The Composer As Pianist," wherein he is playing his own music. He not only rolls practically every single chord, he even plays broken octaves.

Next, there are the two analog recordings, the first of which is "Ravel Conducts Ravel," which has four Debussy selections played by Marguerite Long. The next is the disc "George Copeland, The Victor Solo Recordings."

Both of these recordings show extensive arpeggiation and asynchronization of this composer's music. George Copeland was the only American to every study under Debussy, and he premiered several of his works. Marguerite Long was a personal friend of the Debussys, as well as one of his students.

In terms of evolution, Copeland (1882-1971) played his last recital (every single one of which included at least one selection from Debussy) in 1964. Marguerite Long (1874-1966) died at the age of 91, and played and taught the composer's music in this fashion for 70 years.

Copeland with the exception of two students, did not teach. However, one of them is still very much alive, and he has enthusiastically endorsed my video, and established its accuracy regarding how the music of Debussy was performed.

In terms of evolution, he is a 77 year old Avant-Garde composer who was a student of both Copeland and Elliot Carter when he was 15 years old, and later on Darius Milhaud at Mills College.

Top
#2035829 - 02/19/13 12:07 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
I think it's spelled Copland not Copeland and I encourage you to listen to Rachmaninoff conducting his own symphonies with the Philadelphia. Also you still didn't address my point about music changing with time. I guess it's a complicated subject.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035843 - 02/19/13 12:32 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I think it's spelled Copland not Copeland

Aaron's last name was indeed Copland, but the previous post referred to George Copeland the pianist rather than Aaron Copland the composer.


Edited by fnork (02/19/13 12:33 PM)
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2035863 - 02/19/13 01:05 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Woops that happens when one reads too fast. I totally didn't see that, apologies.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035865 - 02/19/13 01:12 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Well yes the piano is arpeggiated but sounds extremely strange, and in the Brahms cello sonata the cello line couldn't really be heard...

I was talking about other genres such as string quartets and orchestral music. Or what about Brahms two piano works? That would sound kind of awful...
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035884 - 02/19/13 01:45 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
YOU might be talking about string quartets and orchestral works, but the discussion about arpeggiating chords and so on - that was a habit that concerned pianists, the piano being a chordal instrument, not just a melodic one. The allowances pianists of the past made would indeed in some cases be very unsuitable for string quartets, and nobody is claiming that quartets of the past performed in such a way. So let's keep the discussion to piano playing.
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2035890 - 02/19/13 02:00 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Why? Music is music. Composers were influenced by other genres when it comes to the piano. I think it's very relative.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035899 - 02/19/13 02:16 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Why? Music is music. Composers were influenced by other genres when it comes to the piano. I think it's very relative.

....as were pianists. The practice of rolling chords probably had some of its origin in imitating orchestral sounds. For that reason and others, I think asking about the relation to other instruments and combinations is very relevant and helps get at this subject, but it appears to be a deeper and more analytic thing than Louis is inclined to do.

Another thing that's probably relevant is the history of design of keyboard instruments and in particular of the piano. A fellow named Mark Arnest (whom I happen to know from the Colorado amateur competition) wrote a very thoughtful and scholarly article looking at performance practices of the 19th century, including chord rolling and with much emphasis on it, and in a deeper and more open-minded way than what we're seeing here. He talks, among many other things, about the probable relation to the sounds of other instruments and the history of pianos. Louis would benefit from considering such additional factors, for various reasons including because he'd realize better the absurdity of how he's presenting it.

David Dubal likes pointing out that the piano is maybe the only 19th century thing that still takes pretty much exactly the form that it did then. The piano evolved a lot in its early years but has been pretty much constant since about 1880. Mark Arnest found that the practice of habitually rolling chords pretty much ended with people who came of age around that time, and he talks about why that might have been, with regard to these factors. Besides the fact that Louis is simply misrepresenting some supposed facts, which he is, the subject is just a lot more complicated than he seems to realize, and if he grasped more of it, he'd realize that there's a lot he's not taking into account and that he's way overstating things. Would he be interested to consider things like these, and that the practice of habitually rolling chords was a thing of a certain time and was related to these factors that were contemporary to that time, rather than that we have stupidly abandoned the practice and that teachers have been "teaching wrong"?

Let's see. smile

Top
#2035936 - 02/19/13 03:40 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Pogorelich:

I made the decision, early on, when I started finalizing this 13 year research project (two years ago) that I was not going to get bogged down in the Cartesian rationale associated with the Modern School of pianism. I would instead refer you to Dr. Kenneth Hamilton's book, "After The Golden Age: Romantic Pianism and Modern Performance."

It is an excellent primer on how we got from there to here. His first chapter is entitled "Great Tradition, Grand Manner, Golden Age," wherein he pretty much beats it to death in terms of what you call evolution.

However, the specific purpose of my discourse here is to expose as many people as I can to the manner in which the piano was played in the 19th century.

Just as any art teacher, or any drama teacher worth their salt exposes their students to as many styles and schools related to their art, so should every piano teacher do so, who wants to "Teach You Right."

Do I play Prokofiev the way I play Debussy? Of course, I do not. And, the same holds true for any other composer.

Is it my responsibility to let as many people know that Schubert, Chopin, Schumann and Brahms, Debussy, and Ravel did not write or play in a Modern School block chord fashion? As a social activist philosopher, yes it is.

And, if I step on more than a few toes in the process, that is not my concern.

No one would dream of going to any art museum and giving the paintings of the great masters a fresh coat of paint; nor would anyone get up onstage and perform Shakespeare in rap artist rhyme.

The fine art of classical music pianism is absolutely no different. Every piece of art, regardless of its genre or medium, has a specific signature/style indigenous to its original creation.

Top
#2035940 - 02/19/13 03:50 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
I think we are aware of the expressive vocabulary of the old masters, however I think your basic concept is wrong; you've simply interpreted it wrong. Also, you still haven't addressed the concept of music changing over time. The same music changing over time, not modern music being composed in a different way. I don't hear violinists sliding every second bar anymore, and that's kind of the equivalent of breaking everything. I think composers were pretty clear when they wanted something rolled... there is a notation for that. What you're talking about is a different, expressive tool which pianists employed. It's not done anymore because it's outdated and frankly doesn't sound good.


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/19/13 03:51 PM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2035953 - 02/19/13 04:02 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
you still haven't addressed the concept of music changing over time. The same music changing over time, not modern music being composed in a different way.

Regarding performance practices changing over time, here's a pretty relevant statement from 1948 from a fairly significant figure in 20th century music. I quoted him in a different thread as well:

“Today’s manner of performing classical music of the so-called ‘romantic’ type, suppressing all
emotional qualities and all unnotated changes of tempo and expression, derives from the style of playing
primitive dance music. This style came to Europe by way of America, where no old culture regulated
presentation, but where a certain frigidity of feeling reduced all musical expression. Thus almost
everywhere in Europe music is played in a stiff, inflexible metre - not in a tempo, i.e. according to a
yardstick of freely measured quantities. Astonishingly enough, almost all European conductors and
instrumentalists bowed to this dictate without resistance. All were suddenly afraid to be called romantic,
ashamed of being called sentimental...Why is music written at all? Is it not a romantic feeling which
makes you listen to it? Why do you play the piano when you could show the same skill on a typewriter?
(...) It must be admitted that in the period around 1900 many artists overdid themselves in exhibiting the
power of the emotion they were capable of feeling. (...) Nothing can be more wrong than both of these
extremes."


The man writing these words was the figure that pioneered first atonality and later 12-tone music, Arnold Schoenberg.


By the way - if there was a general trend moving away from some of these performance habits we've discussed, certainly not everyone followed this trend - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCrsKGfJP_w


Edited by fnork (02/19/13 05:17 PM)
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2036030 - 02/19/13 06:06 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19658
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
....the specific purpose of my discourse here is to expose as many people as I can to the manner in which the piano was played in the 19th century....

That's great -- and if you didn't make it appear you're trying to do way more than that, it would be just fine.

Top
#2036289 - 02/20/13 08:56 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
fnork:

Thank you for your inciteful comments and especially the Horszowski. It was just beautiful; the best I have ever heard that particular Nocturne played.

As far as how we got here, two things stick out in my mind. The first is that behind the scenes at the First International Chopin Competition in 1927, a young concert pianist named Rubinstein, who did not play rolled chords, saw to it that, from then on, no one would dare play this composer's music in this fashion.

Secondly, when he, Backhaus, Gieseking, Arrau, and Horowitz are out there recording/concertizing everything under the sun in the style of the new Modern School, and you have Harold Schonberg of the NY Times continually telling the whole world of their greatness, then that sends a very strong message.

Finally, (as with Horszowski), Marguerite Long, Adelina de Lara, and George Copeland, all of whom matriculated in Europe in the 1890's, all made recordings of Beethoven and Mozart played in the rolled chord fashion. They certainly could not have been the only three people taught to play this music that way.

Copeland learned it form Teresa Carreno, Long from Marmontel, and de Lara from Clara Schumann. Between the three of them, these great teachers taught thousands of students, who in turn taught tens of thousands more.

Top
#2036305 - 02/20/13 09:24 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: fnork

Regarding performance practices changing over time, here's a pretty relevant statement from 1948 from a fairly significant figure in 20th century music. I quoted him in a different thread as well:

“Today’s manner of performing classical music of the so-called ‘romantic’ type, suppressing all
emotional qualities and all unnotated changes of tempo and expression, derives from the style of playing
primitive dance music. This style came to Europe by way of America, where no old culture regulated
presentation, but where a certain frigidity of feeling reduced all musical expression. Thus almost
everywhere in Europe music is played in a stiff, inflexible metre - not in a tempo, i.e. according to a
yardstick of freely measured quantities. Astonishingly enough, almost all European conductors and
instrumentalists bowed to this dictate without resistance. All were suddenly afraid to be called romantic,
ashamed of being called sentimental...Why is music written at all? Is it not a romantic feeling which
makes you listen to it? Why do you play the piano when you could show the same skill on a typewriter?
(...) It must be admitted that in the period around 1900 many artists overdid themselves in exhibiting the
power of the emotion they were capable of feeling. (...) Nothing can be more wrong than both of these
extremes."



Yes, of course.. every music major has had to come across this quote at one point or another. And that's exactly what started happening in the 20th century, along with 20th century music being composed. It was the reaction to the romantic movement.

Are you saying that unless you roll chords everywhere, you will immediately sound like a typewriter; a soulless, dull endeavor to produce music? Because I disagree...

There are many things we can take from the old masters - particularly their wonderful sense of line, their incredible range of dynamics, the way they listened to everything. Why the rolled chords everywhere? Mind you, I don't think these people did it everywhere, like Mr. Podesta here seems to think.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036312 - 02/20/13 09:37 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
fnork:

Thank you for your inciteful comments and especially the Horszowski. It was just beautiful; the best I have ever heard that particular Nocturne played.

As far as how we got here, two things stick out in my mind. The first is that behind the scenes at the First International Chopin Competition in 1927, a young concert pianist named Rubinstein, who did not play rolled chords, saw to it that, from then on, no one would dare play this composer's music in this fashion.

Secondly, when he, Backhaus, Gieseking, Arrau, and Horowitz are out there recording/concertizing everything under the sun in the style of the new Modern School, and you have Harold Schonberg of the NY Times continually telling the whole world of their greatness, then that sends a very strong message.

Finally, (as with Horszowski), Marguerite Long, Adelina de Lara, and George Copeland, all of whom matriculated in Europe in the 1890's, all made recordings of Beethoven and Mozart played in the rolled chord fashion. They certainly could not have been the only three people taught to play this music that way.

Copeland learned it form Teresa Carreno, Long from Marmontel, and de Lara from Clara Schumann. Between the three of them, these great teachers taught thousands of students, who in turn taught tens of thousands more.


Arrau studied with Krause, who studied with Liszt.

Backhaus studied with Francis Charles d'Albe who studied with Liszt.

Horowitz studied with Schnabel, who studied with Leschetizky who studied with Czerny.

Just like you said before, these people can be traced back to the composers. Well... as you also said, those three play in the "modern" fashion (whatever you think that is). Something doesn't quite work in your favour here.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036319 - 02/20/13 09:54 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
Holy pedantry, Batman! What a sea of meticulous grammar and Unnecessary Capitalizations! Pogo has here the difficult task of storming a beach under fire of large, boring cannons. Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score. No amount of youtube links and gratuitous semicolons will change that. Vicissitudes of performance through the ages is something all performers should be mindful of, but this pronouncements from on high reek strongly of Not Being a Musician.

Top
#2036322 - 02/20/13 10:00 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Pogorelich.]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Yes, of course.. every music major has had to come across this quote at one point or another. And that's exactly what started happening in the 20th century, along with 20th century music being composed. It was the reaction to the romantic movement.

That's not quite how the fellow I quoted would have put it - he saw himself and his music as the natural continuation of what had been going on in western classical music until that time. Schoenberg for one would never have wished dull, metrically inflexible and lifeless performances of his own works. Webern, who so carefully gave performance hints and suggestions for a performer of his piano variations, would most certainly have been extremely surprised to see that this work of his (as well as others) often were being interpreted literally and without inflections or emotions.


Quote:
Are you saying that unless you roll chords everywhere, you will immediately sound like a typewriter; a soulless, dull endeavor to produce music? Because I disagree...

There are many things we can take from the old masters - particularly their wonderful sense of line, their incredible range of dynamics, the way they listened to everything. Why the rolled chords everywhere? Mind you, I don't think these people did it everywhere, like Mr. Podesta here seems to think.

Well no, I added that particular quote more as a commentary on general performance traditions changing. I don't roll chords all over the place and I don't recommend anyone to do it - but under the hands of someone like Rachmaninoff, it can become a powerful tool that any pianist should consider using according to his or her own taste.

I posted some notable Rachmaninoff performances in this regard, but I somehow missed this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nya05t-iDL0

This was recorded in 1940, by the way.
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2036324 - 02/20/13 10:10 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-6B8_Jj-o

Here is the Brahms e- with Serkin and Rostropovich - Serkin studied composition with Schoenberg.

Nice link, fnork - I'm familiar with it. I LOVE how he plays it!
(I've played the piece)

What he does is break the bass note with the melody occasionally... but doesn't roll all those solid chords. Except when it's written in, near the end.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036330 - 02/20/13 10:19 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2117
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music.

Fml...
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

Top
#2036331 - 02/20/13 10:20 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Ian_G]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score.

Well, that is interesting. For what reason then did Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach, Czerny, Daniel Gottlob Turk and countless others write treatises on how we are supposed to interpret what is written into the score? Did Wolfgang's daddy, Johann's son, Beethoven's pupil and numerous others have nothing of interest to say on this topic? Do people who knew Brahms, the Schumann's, Saint-Saens, Chopin, Liszt etc etc - do the recordings of these people have nothing to say of interest regarding performing manners of the past, and possibly performance manners of said composers?
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2036347 - 02/20/13 10:51 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: fnork]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score.

Well, that is interesting. For what reason then did Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach, Czerny, Daniel Gottlob Turk and countless others write treatises on how we are supposed to interpret what is written into the score? Did Wolfgang's daddy, Johann's son, Beethoven's pupil and numerous others have nothing of interest to say on this topic? Do people who knew Brahms, the Schumann's, Saint-Saens, Chopin, Liszt etc etc - do the recordings of these people have nothing to say of interest regarding performing manners of the past, and possibly performance manners of said composers?


I'll take them in order:

1. Those people realized they weren't their son, father or teachers, and settled down on the cheaper real estate.

2. Nothing absolute.

3. Sure, but nothing from which one can or should extrapolate a rule or set of rules.

Top
#2036358 - 02/20/13 11:13 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Kuanpiano]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
You have discovered what very few pianists know, and that is the goal is to make music.

Fml...


Yeah we apparently think the goal is to dress up in pink uniforms and dance around the instrument.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036373 - 02/20/13 11:44 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
fnork:

Very well put, fnork. This is why I keep recommending Kenneth Hamilton's book, "After The Golden Age," as well as Neal Peres da Costa's Off The Record."

The titles of these two works are not by accident. "After the Golden Age" means what the piano sounded like before, and then how it got to where it is now.

"Off The Record" means just that. That is why the first chapter is entitled "Early Recordings: Their Value as Evidence." The OUP companion website has an extensive selection of recordings referencing this and the other chapters in the book.

Instead of spending countless hours pouring over treatises and journal articles, just get the two books and go to school. Hamilton spends fifteen pages with nine different cites on arpeggiation, and Peres da Costa's dedicates an eighty-eight page chapter to the subject.

Regarding Liszt's way of breaking chords, and quoting from Hamilton re: Claudio Arrau, "He (Martin Krause) would teach us several ways of breaking chords: to start slowly and then accelerate toward the highest note; or to make a crescendo to the hightest note; or to make a diminuendo; or to do it freely, with rubato. But always so broken chords would have a meaning coming from what went before."

But, the two things that Gieseking, Rubinstein, Arrau, and Backhaus all had in common were that they started concertizing in their teens or very early twenties, and they did not study with any teacher in adulthood. Martin Krause died when Arrau was fifteen, Rubinstein never had a lesson after the age of seventeen, Gieseking (Karl Leimer)started touring when he was twenty, and with the exception of a later brief coaching with d'Albert, Backhaus was on his own by the age of sixteen.

So, how did they learn, record, and play all of this great music? In that they all had phenomenal abilities in this area, they sight read it off the score. It explains a lot.

Top
#2036442 - 02/20/13 01:46 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Yes and they had to use their own judgment. Is that so terrible?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036468 - 02/20/13 02:28 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Pogorelich:

No, of course not. However, you just get up and play your jury at any major music school or conservatory in the U.S. and see how fast you get downgraded if you "use your own judgment" and play arpeggiated chords. Neal Peres da Costa's pianoforte students get downgraded at the Sydney Conservatorium when they play that way in their juries.

Nevertheless, a special shout out to "fnork" for introducing me to Mieczyslaw Horszowski. I have been researching his life and his recordings, and the man was a great pianist.

He played the Beethoven 1st concerto when he was 8 years old in 1901, and he taught until the week before his death in 1993 at the age of 100! His first teacher was his mother, who was a student of Karol Mikuli (Chopin), and his next was Leschetizsky.

Go to Amazon and listen to some of the samples in his recordings. The man's repertoire, which is referenced on Wikipedia, was pages in length. He played everything (including a ton of Beethoven and Mozart), and he did it in the old, excuse me, the "original style."

I once again list "fnork's" link of him playing the Chopin E Flat Nocturne in recital, at a very advanced age. He just nails it. It is beautiful.

Thank you, thank you "fnork."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCrsKGfJP_w

P.S. Oh, and by the way, the man taught at Curtis for years, with Richard Goode, Murray Periah, Steven de Groote, and Peter Serkin as some of his students.

Top
#2036525 - 02/20/13 04:42 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
I do play everything using my own judgment (including at adjudicated recitals), but my judgment doesn't tell me to arpeggiate every chord I see written.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036528 - 02/20/13 04:46 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
It gets even better. Here is a link of "Horszowski in Japan," which is a portion of a live recital that he played at the age of 98!

He plays the Mozart Sonata K.332, which I have played for 40 years.

Does he asynchronize in the first movement? Yes, he does.

Does he very selectively arpeggiate in the slow movement? Yes, he does.

He turns a single note into a chord, just the way Carl Reinecke does in the video. (Horowitz used to do the same thing.)

Does he play the living daylights out of this piece? YES, HE DOES!

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eBOKCAXmOA

Top
#2036874 - 02/21/13 10:39 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grVHXLY5cM8

To each their own.

(I have to add that I did enjoy elements of Horszowski's too, he is a great great pianist)


Edited by Pogorelich. (02/21/13 10:43 AM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2036924 - 02/21/13 11:52 AM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Pogorelich:

Thank you for your comment. More importantly, what can be gained by going to You Tube and listening to pianists like Horszowski, Friedberg, and Adelina de Lara is that you can hear for yourself exactly how they applied these techniques specific to a particular composer. They all lived very long lives, and they were considered the top teachers in the world.

Horszowski is especially helpful because he lived to be 100, and he was teaching up until a week before his death in 1993. He recorded everything from Bach to the modern 20th century composers.

As an example, when you listen to his Hammerklavier recording, it is a hard almost crunch-like roll, very similar to the way Ravel played in his "Valse Nobles Et Sentimentales" piano roll recording.

Yet, when Horszowski plays the Chopin B Minor Sonata, it is totally different. And, when you listen to his Debussy, he rolls practically everything because that is they way he heard it played when he was a teenager living in Europe, when Debussy was still alive.

Then, when you listen to Friedberg and de Lara play Brahms and Schumann, it is still a different approach, specific to those composer's music, under whom they both studied.

Finally, I enclose for your absolute listening pleasure Horszowski's live performance of the Chopin Sonata. Pay close attention to the "Largo" where improvises a repeat. It is just breathtaking. And remember, his mother was a student of Karol Mikuli (Chopin).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_KeyWkF158

Top
#2036980 - 02/21/13 01:44 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Ian_G]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
Here's the deal: the extent to which performance practice is well and truly important to the composer is written into the score.

Well, that is interesting. For what reason then did Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach, Czerny, Daniel Gottlob Turk and countless others write treatises on how we are supposed to interpret what is written into the score? Did Wolfgang's daddy, Johann's son, Beethoven's pupil and numerous others have nothing of interest to say on this topic? Do people who knew Brahms, the Schumann's, Saint-Saens, Chopin, Liszt etc etc - do the recordings of these people have nothing to say of interest regarding performing manners of the past, and possibly performance manners of said composers?


I'll take them in order:

1. Those people realized they weren't their son, father or teachers, and settled down on the cheaper real estate.

2. Nothing absolute.

3. Sure, but nothing from which one can or should extrapolate a rule or set of rules.

To each their own, indeed. What you basically have to assume, then, is that what Leopold Mozart wrote on music, music-making, violin playing, understanding notation, bears no relation to how he taught and instructed one of the supreme geniouses of classical music. You would have to assume that the "set of rules" that CPE Bach extrapolated from music experiences throughout his life and that he wrote about in his klavierschule had nothing whatsoever with what he got from his father. And by your final remark, I guess we should assume that if out of 118 pianists born between 1824 and 1880 all but one to some degree "broke their hands" then it's still not enough to make any conclusion regarding performance practices of this long bygone era?

To each their own, then. In all fairness, I'm not particularly interested in "extrapolating a set of rules" anyway, merely point at the possibility that we might have lost a part of our musical vocabulary that was so natural for pianists of the past. This young man, IMO the most interesting pianist of his generation, has a few things of interest to say on this matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJUBNJgQ0s
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2037004 - 02/21/13 02:36 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
In my opinion, whatever the old man taught his great son about music was eclipsed so many times over by his supreme genius, as you put it, that it is relegated to the extreme margin of what's relevant, and I can't understand this preoccupation with something so innocuous.

I don't think CPE really understood his father, or cared to. Outside of that, I can't think of a less suitable composer on which to inflict this historical re-consideration, at least in terms of the keyboard music.

I always listen to 19th-born pianists with interest and wide-open ears. I simply hold that musical vocabulary is and must remain innate and the more spontaneous the better. If one were to ask Cortot why he rolled this or that chord, I imagine he'd look at you absolutely dumbfounded. Same with asking Rosenthal about that aynchronization in this or that Mazurka.

If there's a point to be made here, I suppose it's how the modern day recording industry can stifle the imagination of many pianists and cause them to resemble each other, and thus express a limited or self-same expressive vocabulary. I maintain, though, that the expressive devices used by golden era pianists can be traced back to the score. I would be better disposed to this whole business if it posited something more useful, like for example the idea that pianists of the bygone era read a score differently then we do today, that they read it less vertically and more horizontally, and not some idle remarks about how so-and-so who studied with so-and-so rolled this or that chord at bar 149.

Top
#2037010 - 02/21/13 02:46 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Louis Podesta]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
I wonder if Grosvenor uses asynchronization, rolled chords, or extreme rubato in his playing? I never noticed this but I've never listened for it.

Top
#2037024 - 02/21/13 03:20 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated & Asychronized [Re: Ian_G]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 675
Ian_G:

Thank you for nailing it down even more. First, everyone who studied piano, until the advent of the formal music schools, had not one but two teachers. That is why when you read the bios of all the great pianists of the 19th century, they list their piano teachers, and they also list the person under whom they studied theory and composition.

It was expected that if you performed, then you would also be playing your own stuff. Anton Rubinstein, Busoni, Friedberg, Earl Wild, and even Horszowski wrote and played their own music.

When you are trained that way you visualize and hear a piece completely differently from the pianists of today. Carl Friedberg could sit in a chair, look at piece of music and then go to the piano and play it from memory.

When Prokofiev premiered his 3rd Concerto in New York, he visited Friedberg's class at Juilliard two days later, where it was performed on two pianos. Prokofiev complimented Friedberg's playing of the second piano part from memory, and asked him how long it took him to learn it. Friedberg replied that was simply the way he had heard it played with orchestra two days earlier.

So, absolutely yes, the way 19th century pianists played can be traced directly back to the score because by the time they performed a piece they knew everything structurally there was to know about it. Accordingly, as I have said before, they could hear in their minds ear what the composer was trying to say.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
85 registered (36251, aesop, barbaram, Al LaPorte, Abby Pianoman, 26 invisible), 1343 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75581 Members
42 Forums
156278 Topics
2295099 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Help with dynamics
by noobpianist90
Today at 03:53 AM
Using Kawai MP6 faders/knobs with virtual instruments?
by chicolom
Today at 02:35 AM
Coming up with new compositional methods.
by gsmonks
Today at 01:58 AM
Impromptu in A
by Ritzycat
Today at 12:42 AM
what do you think piano teachers about it?
by Maximillyan
Today at 12:15 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission