Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Tokiwa or Wessell Nickel & Gross shanks?

Hi,

I am going to bite the bullet and reshank our 1970 Yamaha C7. I've got a couple of sample Tokiwa shanks, and they fit nicely, but if I got the entire set I'd have to re-pin every one of them to get exactly 3 grams on the center pin. I hear on WN&G shanks don't need you to do this. I am happy with the current hammers and plan to keep them for now.

I am intrigued by the carbon fiber concept on the shanks. Though I am a geek I am not an early adopter - I always buy the latest & greatest after it has been around long enough for the worst bugs to come out and be fixed.

So far I have gotten two inputs from people I trust, one of them a poster here and on Pianostreet.com. The two opinions can be summarized as "I am not really interested in carbon fiber, but the real leader in this technology is Kawai", and "the top manufacturers, like Renner, are sticking to wood". Another opinion I got from a senior experienced rebuilder is "I've switched and never looked back, there is no question that carbon fiber is superior" (Note: He also sells them).

The question is if there is something to the traditional view on wood, or if carbon fiber is actually a superior material for shanks. The argument on their stiffness seems appealing to me.

I have contacted Mason & Hamlin to find a local dealership here in the Washington, D.C. area so I could try an instrument with the carbon shanks. I have not gotten a reply yet...

I herewith open (or better - re-open) the discussion...

W,N&G carbon shanks have a smaller diameter than wood ones. This will not allow you to use the present hammers as a loose fit like that is not sustainable over time.
I have used several sets of the carbon shanks-they are superior in the touch, tone, and stability issues.

I've never heard of anyone replacing shanks and flanges without replacing hammers as well. The labour involved in re-using the hammers is almost as much as a new set. 43 year old Yamaha hammers are not worth keeping. As for the choice between wood or carbon, I would go with the WNG, though the Tokiwa parts are perfectly suitable. Your tech may have a preference. Good luck.
Tim

You can use your current hammers but it’s not recommended. You will have to shear the original hammershank (leaving the original hammershank wood in the hole as a plug) and redrill for the smaller size of the carbon fiber tube. Not an easy task unless you’re equipped with some kind of hammershank drilling jig designed for the purpose.

Generally both are replaced at the same time and the new hammers are bored to suit.




“Top manufacturers, like Renner, are sticking to wood” because they have decades of experience with wood action components and millions of dollars of investment in the machinery, tooling and technology needed to build them.

“Plastic” piano action parts got a bad name when they were first introduced using very unstable materials. Similar materials were used in automobiles and a myriad of other consumer products. I can recall seeing advertisements for and automobile—Chevy, I think—that used a “genuine plastic” steering wheel. Those steering wheels cracked just like those action parts did. Today, though, we would laugh at a Ford salesman trying to belittle a Chevy because it used a “plastic” something-or-other. Yet it is still the perception of some marketing and salespeople that they can convincingly belittle the use of plastic parts in a competitor’s product.

Kawai led the pack on this. Thankfully they have resisted the (mostly) untrue criticism of their “plastic” action for more than forty years and now when a competitive salesperson tries to disparage them it usually comes off as a sad joke on the salesperson.

I don’t know of any piano manufacturers other than M&H using the Wessel, Nickel & Gross action in regular production as yet but I know some are working with samples. It is available as an upscale option on Steingraeber pianos and I fully expect several others will be making them at least optional in the near future.

Many technicians—including myself—have worked with them enough to become comfortable with them. They are now my action components of choice.




There are many differing views on these parts and materials. Rather than repeat them all here yet again, I’d suggest you do a search of the archives and read what has already been written on the subject. There should be quite a lot of material there. You might also do the same on the Technicians Forum.

You won’t find “dealers” for these parts; you’ll find technicians who use them and include them in the work that they do. We all purchase them directly from Wessel, Nickel & Gross.

ddf

They are also available from Brooks Limited.

The shank shearing and re-drilling makes for less uniform drilling results. The bit will wander more because of the differing grain angle between the plug and the moulding.

This is not a job for a DIY or novice unless you just enjoy down time for your piano.

Replacing the stock Yamaha hammer with a softer, lighter type like Ronsen makes would be an upgrade if installed by a skilled tone-regulator.

I contacted Mason & Hamlin a few times in the fall......still haven't heard back from them. If you are looking to see these "in action" you may try contacting Nina Butler at Wessell Nickel & Gross directly. She is exceptionally helpful and was able to direct me to a showroom with new M&H pianos in stock with the new synthetic actions and carbon fiber shanks.

I didn't say it was the recommended procedure but it can be done in a workmanlike way. Using the correct style of drill bit and a good drilling jig will keep the holes centered.

The first time I saw this done was on a set of hammers on a new Steinway B that had come directly from the factory drilled that way. The original set of holes were too low; they had been redrilled, installed and shipped.

ddf

Thanks - this is very helpful, I will follow up on this suggestion. It seems the consensus here is in favor of the WN&G shanks, but for obvious reasons with new hammers. Now I have to decide which ones, and if to order pre-bored to WN&G diameter, or do it myself (I have a jig).

For those of you concerned about DIY messing with piano: I have worked on my own uprights and grands since I was a teenager. I have replaced broken shanks before, replaced broken strings, glued hammers, & so on. As mentioned above, I have a boring jig. Recently I acquired a junk action and taught myself pins & bushings. I am also enrolled in a tuning/technicians course, but it is more of a remote study setup. Though I'd love to take an exam some day for the heck of it (& to prove that I can), I make my living in another field altogether. I don't do this kind of work to save money - I do it because I enjoy understanding and working on the things I love.

Had a Kawai with carbon fiber. Loved the action.
Sold that.
Tried $$$$ Euro pianos.
The WNG action was a major factor in my Mason & Hamlin purchase. The Euro pianos seemed to have a lag compared to the M&H.

Keep in mind, hammers need more than boring. You will have to taper the sides (to remove excess weight and allow clearance), which requires a table saw and tapering jig, and you will have to arc the tails using a jig and belt or disk sander. Depending on the hammer mass, you will have to cove the inside of the molding as well. If you are not prepared to do this, you will have to order this work already done. A word of caution on hammers... WNG shanks are significantly more rigid than wood, and in my experience, using hard and massive hammers with these shanks will make the piano sound bad in the treble section. I would use 16lb Ronsen hammers with Weickert or AA felt.

We help the DIY piano crowd. We can provide you with the appropriate WN&G shanks -- either naked or with hammers pre-hung. PM me if this seems useful for you to explore. Another forum member is approaching completion of his action rebuild using WN&G shanks/flanges with Isaac pre-hung pre-voiced hammers.

The first time I saw this done was on a set of hammers on a new Steinway B that had come directly from the factory drilled that way. The original set of holes were too low; they had been redrilled, installed and shipped.

ddf [/quote]

In the OP's piano it seems the hammers are original so the bore location is not in error. It is when you plug and re-drill in the same location that the grain interferes.

The further post from the OP show he is not a neophyte at piano technology. I wish him well on his work and progress to become a more skilled and experienced Tech!

Airspeed,

Since you are in the DC area, you might inquire at Jordan Kitts and see if they still have a C series Yamaha that has new WNG parts. This is not a new piano but one they upgraded and have/had for resale.

Good luck,

Hello Airspeed!

I'm one of Keith Akins's (Kpembrook) customers, but in no way am I prompted for the glowing report I'll give him here.

He sold me WNG shanks and flanges and Isaac Cadenza Hammers for my 1954 Baldwin L.

I replaced the materials myself, but Keith hung the hammers to the shanks.

Other than having a keen mechanical sense and a childhood curiosity with our family piano (much worry for my mother!) I had never done a complex and detailed job like this before. The WNG materials are a dream to work with and the results have been fantastic!

For me it was a difficult but very satisfying process, and now I have an intimate knowledge of every nook and cranny of my instrument.

Even if you don't use Keith as a supplier, I urge you to at least talk with him.

all best on the journey!

Forrest Halford

Thank you all for this outpouring of support!

The decision is obvious: I'll have to get the hammers pre-bored and shaped, maybe even already hung.

I have also contacted Jordan Kitts - their name was also given to me by Nina Butler. This is funny - the current owner is a former high school classmate of mine.

In terms of hammers, I see the recommendation for 16lb Rosen hammers. What about Abel? This will be the next decision.

Also, I will contact persons recommended to me here on this thread about having the hammer work done.

Thanks again!

I hope you don't mind if I ask a little side question here, Aispeed.

When substituting these carbon fiber shanks and lighter hammers, does there need to be a corresponding alteration anywhere else in the action to keep things in balance? I'm thinking the keys, specifically. Do they need some weights to be removed to maintain optimal balance in the system? What is the procedure for working this out? And what would happen if this wasn't done, or wasn't done correctly?

A qualified yes, because balance is a relative term. If Airspeed was happy with the touch previously, and wanted it to feel identical or nearly identical to how it feels currently, changing hammer mass, depending on how much the total strike weight is changed, would alter the inertia of the action. You would be changing the dynamic feel of the instrument in play.

This, for many reasons is not in itself a bad thing, as many clients when offered a little less resistance in play, decide they like the change. If he really wants to maintain the inertia he presently has, assuming the hammer weights are not changed grossly, there are other modifications that can be made, either in the geometry, or actually inserting lead into the hammer molding.

The changed strike weight, more resilient hammers, shanks of consistent stiffness, and shanks which shimmy less at impact will also effect the tone. With a Yamaha, this could be an improvement ,or, depending on Airspeed's tastes, not.

Just be aware of the possibilities and opportunities beforehand.

I think its a good move, but be prepared to tweak.

Jim Ialeggio

Greetings,
The shanks don't change the weight of the action, per se. You can select a wide variety of knuckle distances, but the parts themselves don't change any of the action weights. Lighter hammers, yes, that will change the feel a lot.
The big benefit of the WNG parts is the pinning can be set very light and still maintain control that exceeds what is available from cloth, and these parts are not going to warp and twist after you have regulated them. They are more consistent than wooden parts will ever dream of, and they seem to stay that way.
Regards,

Let me fill in some details of what is going on: When I bought the piano, it was a bit heavy. The vendor told me to play it an see what happens - it has been completely rebuilt except for the action (Key bushings are new, damper mechanism redone, including pins and bushings, hammers though reshaped only, dhanks, bushings & pins original). It had been lubricated at the knuckles.

Instead of the piano losing up it got worse, and then the middle C would not come back up. That's when I discovered I had 1.5 swings on many of the hammers. So about half I was able to loosen up with technicians lube and get them somewhat back into spec (about 7 swings). The rest I repinned. Now the ones I did not repin are acting up again. And I still have not touched the knuckles, though I replaced one shank and could feel an immediate improvement with the new knuckle.

Then the reshanking started to make more sense. Instead of messing with the remaining pins, and then still having to worry about the knuckles, why not do it right and do the whole shebang?

So I WOULD like to action to be a bit lighter, even on the ones that are working right now. My previous piano was a 1986 Bosendorfer 200.

If you like the Bosendorfer touch, the carbon shank can help you get there. Bose's have very few leads in the keys and the hammers are narrower than Yamaha. This reduces weight. Bose's have lower inertia in their action than most pianos.

Narrower hammers are easily accommodated by the narrower carbon shanks.
Ronsen can easily make you a set of slightly narrower hammers with the light maple moldings. I would not play around with the leverage beyond getting a set of shanks with 9 or 9.5mm dia. knuckles, this keeps it simple. Reduce the key leading to a max of 2 front leads (Yamaha use larger dia. leads than most), in the bass tapering to no front leads around F above middle C. Taper the hammer sides and shape the shoulder felt after they are glued, until the static touch weight drops to the low 60's at note 1 slowly tapering to low 50's at 88. The top octave or so will likely need lead at the back side of the key.

This "action" plan will also bring the tone up to a generally very good level for a 14 to 16lb Ronsen hammer. Some 8 to 1, (acetone to clear lacquer) at the top octave will be needed.

Good luck!