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#2034380 - 02/16/13 05:38 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...The standard range of the flute is three full octaves, starting on C4 (middle C) up to C7. Advanced flutists generally play up to F7. A piccolo is voiced one octave higher, an alto flute is a fourth lower, and a bass flute is one octave below the concert flute. Additionally, there are many custom "odd-balls" floating around....


Thank you, Marty.

I've learnt a lot about the flute today. From the chapter on flutes in my book on musical instruments at breakfast and now in time for supper from your posts.

As for playing wind instruments in symphonies, piano concertos and chamber music I am musing about the skills of flutists and trumpeters. Do flutists regard pianists as an intransigent bunch of Johnnies Come Lately?


Edited by Withindale (02/16/13 05:47 PM)
Edit Reason: Other posts
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2034397 - 02/16/13 06:00 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: Withindale]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7401
Loc: Rochester MN

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Do flutists regard pianists as an intransigent bunch of Johnnies Come Lately?

Jeez, I hope not. I'm a pianist, too!

(Though, the tale of Pan and Syrinx comes to mind and there is always the early satyrclavier.)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2034403 - 02/16/13 06:06 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Only if one believes that ET is as close to pitch as possible. In fact, it cannot be as it is an adaptation and compromise made based on just intonation and harmony.

Sorry, the laws of acoustical physics predate any keyboard instrument.


I think you were responding to me. What I meant about the tolerances is that no instrument plays any specific pitch exactly. There are minute variations in pitch, and those variations in a piano are smaller than in most other instruments. It has nothing to do with temperament.

Some of those variations are deliberate. That is what vibrato is. The mechanics that allow one to play vibrato prevent one from playing exactly at any one pitch.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2034422 - 02/16/13 06:48 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 133
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Question: If instead of tuning A4=440, I tune it to 435; does the beat rates change
or do they remain the same as if it was 440?
Like F3 to A3, approximate 7 bps wide, 435 becomes less or more.
Thank you all.

Herr Weiss

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#2034424 - 02/16/13 06:51 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7401
Loc: Rochester MN
BDB - The way you have described you original intention, I do agree with. Sorry if I misread what you wrote. I was thinking in the concept of the thread being "stretches and temperaments." That is why I specified ET.

A piano can be stable, but in ET it is not in tune. Our difference seems to be the entire concept of intonation.

Certainly an instrument can be out of tune and vibrato does not negate the perceived pitch of the tonal center. Even with vibrato, or other coloration techniques, the fundamental pitch is heard. It is either in tune, or not.

Consider also, the effect of vibrato is totally different on a string instrument, on a wind, or from the voice. It can be amplitude or pitch and that is totally dependent on the method of production.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2034426 - 02/16/13 06:59 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7401
Loc: Rochester MN
Herr Weiss - Welcome to Piano World!

When you compare A-440 to A-435, it is a direct reference to beats per second or Hz. The octave A above your tuning would be A-870. Those pitches would then be divided into the 12 half-steps which form the basis of western tonal structure.

Each note on your piano would be proportionally different from the corresponding note on a piano tuned to A-440.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2034437 - 02/16/13 07:12 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 133
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Thank you Minnesota Marty for your quick answer!
The reason I asked is that one of my pianos is a Upright from
the 1890's, New England #59529; and I'm afraid to practice on it
at A=440. So A=435 is a whole new ball game. Good to know.

Thank you once more. Cheers!

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#2034439 - 02/16/13 07:21 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 133
Loc: New York, N.Y.
So, at A=435, F3 to A3 will NOT have 7 bps wide, correct?
Less or more?. I'll experiment with my ears open.
Good night!

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#2034457 - 02/16/13 08:02 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
BDB - The way you have described you original intention, I do agree with. Sorry if I misread what you wrote. I was thinking in the concept of the thread being "stretches and temperaments." That is why I specified ET.

A piano can be stable, but in ET it is not in tune. Our difference seems to be the entire concept of intonation.

Certainly an instrument can be out of tune and vibrato does not negate the perceived pitch of the tonal center. Even with vibrato, or other coloration techniques, the fundamental pitch is heard. It is either in tune, or not.

Consider also, the effect of vibrato is totally different on a string instrument, on a wind, or from the voice. It can be amplitude or pitch and that is totally dependent on the method of production.

I do not believe that you have a realistic notion of all of what being "in tune" might mean. You seem to want it to mean that a note is pitched arbitrarily close to some sort of theoretically pure relationship with any other note that it is played with. By that standard, nothing is "in tune." Even if you use as arbitrary a standard as "perceived pitch of the tonal center," nothing is in tune.

It is, as I said, all a question of tolerances. The tolerances on a piano are extremely small compared to almost all other instruments. In fact, many of the tempered intervals of a well-tuned piano may be closer to pure than the same intervals on other instruments where those intervals theoretically should be pure.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2034458 - 02/16/13 08:05 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: Herr Weiss]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
So, at A=435, F3 to A3 will NOT have 7 bps wide, correct?
Less or more?. I'll experiment with my ears open.
Good night!


It will not have the same 7 bps wide as it would be in 440, and I am not going to do the math right now to say how much slower it should be. I will point out that 7 is just an approximation.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2034492 - 02/16/13 09:26 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 133
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Wow, you guys are really cool! Yes, after thinking, I came to the conclusion that
of course it had to be slower, DUH?!?
I am the type that needs to understand everything in the smallest details before
it becomes part of me. To memorize stuff without understanding is futile.
My other piano is a Weser spinet '72. No problem with A=440 with this one and
the pins are super tight comparing with the New England.
I am in the assimilation point of my studies; full steam ahead now.
Thank you, BDB and Minnesota Marty, for the help. You guys can't even imagine
how much you all have guided me in my goal to become a knowledgeable and respectable
tuner, as I been following this site for a long time.
Cheers, H.W.

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#2034502 - 02/16/13 09:55 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: BDB]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1721
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
So, at A=435, F3 to A3 will NOT have 7 bps wide, correct?
Less or more?. I'll experiment with my ears open.
Good night!


It will not have the same 7 bps wide as it would be in 440, and I am not going to do the math right now to say how much slower it should be. I will point out that 7 is just an approximation.

It will beat at 7 * 435/440 = 6.92 bps which is 7 bps for all practical purposes.

Kees

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#2034518 - 02/16/13 10:57 PM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 133
Loc: New York, N.Y.
DoelKees: Getting teary eyes over here with the unexpected camaradie!!!

Back in 1985 I took a course given by a RPT that in the end went nowhere.
Should have been advertised as Tuning 101, because I knew that what I learned
was very superficial. Needless to say I went to Art school instead of continuing
further; his heart was not quite there, I'm equally guilty.

Years went by with no thoughts of ever going back to learn more, I could just do
regulation, no tuning. That White book is very hard to understand. My SIGHT-O-TUNER
is in mint condition, haha.

Well, after finding this heaven-sent web site, I started just looking out of curiosity.
One day I almost fell off my chair after reading Bill Bremmer explaining how to
tune without counting BEATS!! What a revelation!!!

Am here for the long haul, and just sad when I think, what a difference a good
teacher can be in a person's life.

Sorry for the drama, but it is all true.
Love all you guys + girls.


H.W.

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#2034629 - 02/17/13 08:15 AM Re: Stretches and Temperaments [Re: greatlifestyle]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Strangely enough, Marty, I have represented your position about 25 years ago to the director of a well known American university concert band. They had commissioned a piece and the composer had gone into a remote key resulting in some terrie intonation problems. He was recommending the students get those cheap pocket tuning devices that were coming onto the market at that time. I advised scales in thirds, etc. working towards remote keys, in other words,,,,,,listening. It would be an interesting discussion, since older instruments were mentioned, what effects the adoption of the stroboscope by Conn, and others in the 1930's had on wind instrument manufacture.

What struck me most in that encounter was he way he a d his assistant treated the band. He genuinely thought the musicians respected him when in fact they feared him. A common confusion that sheds light on musicians raised in that atmosphere.
I hope it's not like that now. Does it stem from those NY conductors of the 30's-40's who had childish tempers and were always photographed making ferocious threatening gestures. I do know that much of this was a construct of the media and on one occasion that a musician was insulted, the rehearsal was stopped until a rep from local 402 could get there and insist on a public apology before the rehearsal could proceed.

There is a vast discrepancy regarding what is unnecessary rudeness on this forum. It is not as bad as it was. Most have learned, some don't know what rudeness is. Maybe too many television soaps. "it's not rude when it's true" !!! That's worthy of a 7 year old here.

It is not necessary to decry another opinion in order for your opinion to be heard. That stems from schooldays. Nobody does that any more except third rate politicians.

I will recant if you wish, it's really not that important. I was merely stating the findings of musicians who are daily playing and listening intently to immediate playbacks of their performance. As Ed, another consummate professional and listener quoted, everything changes when there's a piano in the mix. (words to that effect). Ed and I don't always agree and that's healthy, did you notice how politely he voiced his slightly differing opinion? Never to late to learn.


Edited by rxd (02/17/13 03:13 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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