Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Soundboard - replace or not

of course, anybody and everybody does that. After all it's not rocket science.

I wonder why some piano makers take care to place bridge pins precisely at the edge of the notch when, like Bosendorfer, anybody and everybody does not?

This is the wonderful part of high end piano building. Not everybody thinks the same way. To get the subtle differences of tone and touch between makers, one must have a series of subtle touches and tweaks, built up over years, decades. To think that anybody can replicate these subtle details misses a lot of the fun and importance.

I think you'll see on more recent Bosendorfers that the pins are more centered in the notch. August Forster, however, stays with the "slightly out of the notch" method.

To be sure, I didn't say that "anybody" could do this level of work, but to say that Boesendorfer is the only company that can do it, or replace a soundboard "otherwise it's not a Boesendorfer", sounds just as stupid and arrogant as when the folks at Steinway make the same claim.

Bosendorfer is an interesting piano.

I have a 12 year old Strauss Edition, B200 scale here in shop for a couple of things.

We have spent some time regulating, tuning and voicing the piano.

It is different than a Steinway certainly. One of the most noticeable differences is the character of the bass.

Beethoven, whoever you are, I'm glad that with your one visit to the factory and your new associate status you are such an expert. I was an expert once too, but the more experienced I got I realized the less I knew. You should have heard how stupid and arrogant I was back then!

I remember being stupid with you back in the day; Eric!

I do think that if Jorge needs a new board the factory option may be the only one. I would have to make new fixtures to do an expanded compass piano. I don't want to work that hard now. David Rubinstein in LA built an expanded compass piano but I don't think he is doing soundboards anymore. He's is the only possibility I can think of.

I would recommend that if a new soundboard is installed or the existing one repaired that the agraffes be changed to the ones without the hard metal insert string termination point. That way when you play the piano loudly the tone will be warmer since Jorge is unhappy with the tone.

Eric,

Funnily enough, much more seems to go on at the bridge pin than most of us realise. That's why, as you say, these differences are interesting. Why does a Bosendorfer sound like a Bosendorfer, with or without cracks?

Ed, you were never, ever as stupid as me...and you still aren't!

The great unanswered question Ian, and the one that makes the piano world so fun and humbling. And it can be asked about Steingraeber and Forster and Sauter and Fazioli and all the others. It's the sum total of individual, minute decisions over a long period of time.

Actually the more experience I get the more convinced I am that it IS rocket science.

ps...you know the comment you quoted was facetious, right?

It is true that some of the Techs replacing sound boards, certainly can to justice to the Bosendorfer style.

Bosendorfer is a style and unique as such. It is nice that it is recognized as that.

BTW, I believe it is still possible to engage Mr. Rubinstein to do a board.

Yes, I joined the Guild as an associate last year, but I have been working on pianos for a handful of years before then, a lot of which was in a university setting, while also completing a M.Mus. degree in... piano performance. I was also fortunate enough to travel a lot during my university days, and visited several other factories, high-end workshops, and historical collections. I am more than qualified to have an opinion on this matter.

As I see it, there are two things at issue, here, and I'm not sure if one is more important to you or not, so I'll cover both. One is whether or not Boesendorfer factory workers are the only people with the skills necessary to replace a Boesendorfer's soundboard. And the other is, irrespective of the rebuilder's skill, whether or not replacing the soundboard changes the instrument enough for it to no longer be considered a true Boesendorfer.

With respect to the first, I don't think there's a strong argument. There are several very talented individuals who install soundboards, and some probably do an even better job than some factories. There are also a select few who accurately reproduce fortepianos and harpsichords from scratch. With that in mind, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that some talented craftsman could install a new soundboard in a Boesendorfer.

The second issue is, perhaps, more of a grey area that will never be agreed upon. My thought is that a Boesendorfer, like it or not, is still a production instrument. They don't make their own action or hammers, and if memory serves, they don't make their cast-iron frames; it has also been over 150 years since someone with the maker's name has built a piano. So, it's not like we're talking about one-of-a-kind instruments, here. Even if we were, there is precedent for large-scale restoration to be undertaken while ultimately recognizing the final product as that of the original builder. In perhaps one of the most extreme cases, the 1720 Cristofori instrument underwent major restoration in 1938, including a new soundboard and pinblock; if the fine folks at the Metropolitan Museum of Art can still catalog this as a Cristofori instrument, a Boesendorfer with a non-OEM soundboard is a non-issue, IMO, especially if the new sound board was a faithful reproduction of the original. Indeed, I don't think even the most acute pianists would be able to tell the difference.

Sorry I don't understand, did you see something else wrong from the pictures??? I know the bridge pins are the 'metal pegs' (don't you all cringe! Lol) that circumvent the strings, but what do you mean "out of the notched"

What he is talking about is the pin location respective of where the notch begins. Some manufacturers center the pins in the notch cut so that the bridge top and pin terminate the string at the same time; using this method, the string has a tendency to crush the top of the wood bridge, as the piano ages, which could force the string to terminate before the bridge pin, resulting in tonal problems. By locating the pins in front of where the notch begins during manufacture (as indicated in your pictures), the risk of this happening is minimized. In other words, there is nothing wrong with the bridges. But hey, what do I know?... I'm just an associate PTG member

Hi Jorge,

Sorry you are experiencing this anxiety about your piano. One way or another I'm sure you can fix it.

I'm curious about a few things: Did you move with the piano from Atlanta to Las Vegas or did you simply buy the piano from a seller in Atlanta?

Are all the parts original from 1967, including strings, hammers/shanks/flanges/knuckles, and key bushings? How often do you play it and what kind of music do you play?

It's somewhat surprising that you have not yet installed a double tank Dampp-Chaser humidity control system. Is there a particular reason why you have avoided doing that?

Jorge

Are you sure about your diagnosis?

I recently acquired a 1905 Ibach grand piano, restored about 5 years ago, without having an opportunity to play it first. Even though I was prepared for some problems, I was more than disappointed with its terrible touch, the power of the bass, and sheer lack of sustain across the board. Then I noticed some cracks in the soundboard.

The action needed its screws tightening and regulation. Then I discovered the nut holding down the centre of the frame had almost no thread. Fortunately there was just one rusty old nut in the box that fitted. I gave it about 1/8th turn with a spanner and the bass roared into life. One note, with a duff damper that I hadn't noticed before, sustained seemingly for ever.

Maybe, as some of the experts here say, the soundboard is your problem but just maybe, as some of those experts suggest, it isn't.

Beethoven986, It makes sense now, thank you for your explanation and I appreciate your input, regardless of your title.

I've always lived in Las Vegas, I bought the piano which was located in Atlanta and had it shipped here.
As far as I know (and what was told to me and what David Chadwick inspected) I believe at this point everything is original. I mostly play it for a few hours over the weekend, I used to play more but I had to get a second job to pay for it so I don't really have time anymore, I play tons of classic but recently have started getting into jazz and blues.

David has been on my case about installing the Dampp-Chaser, I was already going to listen to him but I had a great confirmation after installing the room humidifier. The only resason why I was resistant is because I read online that the system only benefits the soundboard but nothing else, and the pin block is another component I want to make sure gets preserved.

The whole room humidification is not a bad idea but care must be taken to always maintain the desired RH levels. It's a better system because if there is fluctuations the environment won't change as aggressively because the fixtures in the room and the walls themselves are living in that same situation and will lessen any immediate change. The DC system is localized to benefit the target component. As the system performs over time ( I have found) the other wood and cloth components will benefit from the DC system such as the pin block, damper guide bushings and key frame but the system must be monitored and respect the low water warnings. Either way the wood and cloth will reap the benefits. I believe the stress' seen in the soundboard will lessen and desired hammer tone will improve with proper humidity levels. If the piano is thirsty.. give it a drink.

I have several clients who use summer swamp coolers in their homes. It is a evaporator cooler that removes latent heat from where evaporation takes place. It kinda fools the body into thinking it's cooler yet doesn't change the temperature very much. (much like having a kettle slowly steaming on the stove during the winter makes one feel warmer). Once the outside temperature goes over 80 to 90 degrees all it does is create more humidity. I do summer service calls in the desert at both extremes. There is a marked difference however with the summer swamp cooled pianos having better a voice and sustain but tight pinning. sticking dampers and sluggish key bushings are troublesome. I love my job.