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#2034113 - 02/16/13 05:28 AM How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys?
sistimorgan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 31
? Made inside or outside the piano? I did was putting weight on the back of the key art and the leveling tool Davis and I had no right. Is it better to do it with a ruler?

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#2034121 - 02/16/13 06:00 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
lluiscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 145
Originally Posted By: moy12
? Made inside or outside the piano? I did was putting weight on the back of the key art and the leveling tool Davis and I had no right. Is it better to do it with a ruler?


Papering in the balance rail pin.
Use the tool for check desired height in dummies keys... and rule for fine/quick adjustment.

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#2034126 - 02/16/13 06:34 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: lluiscl]
sistimorgan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: moy12
? Made inside or outside the piano? I did was putting weight on the back of the key art and the leveling tool Davis and I had no right. Is it better to do it with a ruler?


Papering in the balance rail pin.
Use the tool for check desired height in dummies keys... and rule for fine/quick adjustment.


Yes., I put paper washers, already knew. Do you do it inside or outside of the piano?

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#2034127 - 02/16/13 06:50 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
lluiscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 145
Outside. Inside you can do deep/aftertouch front rail...

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#2034150 - 02/16/13 08:10 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
As a general rule, all finer regulation is best done in the piano with the stack on, that is, the action fully assembled and in playing position with cheekblocks in. The surface of the key bed never ever matches the surface of the bench.
For finer key levelling, the action can be drawn and tipped so that a cut paper punching can be placed under the cloth punching or a thin punching can be torn out as necessary.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2034155 - 02/16/13 08:32 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
sistimorgan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 31
What do you use as a weight to put on the back of the key and get the job? I put some books in the back of the key, but were not properly balanced.

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#2034162 - 02/16/13 09:02 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I noticed that you said that you didn't get good results with a levelling tool. If you have ivory keys they can be dished where they are worn. A straightedge has traditionally been used. Some manufacturers specify a slight crown. The sense of touch is valuable, too. Sighting along keys using a strategically placed light also helps.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2034176 - 02/16/13 09:34 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1091
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
One of the most efficient ways to weight keys for leveling is the use of a long steel, threaded dowel with 3/4" ( 20 mm) washers on it. Use nuts on the end to keep it from falling apart. It will weigh about 10-15 lbs, (7 kilos). The washers need to be floppy loose,and when this is laid across the back of the keys, will evenly distribute its weight.
I usually use the stack,though. It doesn't need to be screwed down with all the screws, just enough to lift the hammers off the rests.

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#2034198 - 02/16/13 10:20 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: Ed Foote]
sistimorgan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Greetings,
One of the most efficient ways to weight keys for leveling is the use of a long steel, threaded dowel with 3/4" ( 20 mm) washers on it. Use nuts on the end to keep it from falling apart. It will weigh about 10-15 lbs, (7 kilos). The washers need to be floppy loose,and when this is laid across the back of the keys, will evenly distribute its weight.
I usually use the stack,though. It doesn't need to be screwed down with all the screws, just enough to lift the hammers off the rests.


thank you very much for your help, but I find it hard to translate what you say, since I live in Spain. Please could you send a picture of this system? My email is moisescata12@hotmail.com . Thanks


Edited by moy12 (02/16/13 10:21 AM)

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#2034324 - 02/16/13 04:03 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1091
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: moy12
[quote=Ed Foote]Greetings,
One of the most efficient ways to weight keys for leveling is the use of a long steel, threaded dowel with 3/4" ( 20 mm) washers on it. Use nuts on the end to keep it from falling apart.
thank you very much for your help, but I find it hard to translate what you say, since I live in Spain. Please could you send a picture of this system? My email is moisescata12@hotmail.com . Thanks
\
\

I don't use the system anymore, so have no picture. But, imagine a 48" threaded steel rod, (we call them "All-Thread" here).
put a nut on one end and lock it in place. Drop perhaps 200 washers of around 1" each over the rod. They should have a hole in them large enough so that the washer is really loose and wobbles around. When you put a nut on the other end, there should be an inch or so of free space so the washers are loosely held. Laid across the back of the keys, behind the capstans, the weight is disbursed very evenly and holds all the keys down at the back.
hope that helps.

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#2034499 - 02/16/13 09:49 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I think you should call a real piano technician to do this for you. Grand piano regulation is complex and interactive. Leveling the keys changes key dip as well as blow distance, after touch, checking etc etc. everything is connected - change one thing everything else changes as well.

I don't think it is helpful for technicians to advise in this kind of situation. Readers think that a few lines of internet advice can get them somewhere, while we all know that the only place it will get anyone is into trouble.

If someone is sincerely interested in getting into this kind of thing, there are books and other resources. A lot of background knowledge needs to be internalized before someone can embark on regulating a grand. Asking a few questions on an internet forum about technical "How-Do-I's" is not he way to go.
_________________________
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Piano Forte Supply
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#2034620 - 02/17/13 07:36 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: Ed Foote]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 433
Loc: new york city
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: moy12
[quote=Ed Foote]Greetings,
One of the most efficient ways to weight keys for leveling is the use of a long steel, threaded dowel with 3/4" ( 20 mm) washers on it. Use nuts on the end to keep it from falling apart.
thank you very much for your help, but I find it hard to translate what you say, since I live in Spain. Please could you send a picture of this system? My email is moisescata12@hotmail.com . Thanks
\
\

I don't use the system anymore, so have no picture. But, imagine a 48" threaded steel rod, (we call them "All-Thread" here).
put a nut on one end and lock it in place. Drop perhaps 200 washers of around 1" each over the rod. They should have a hole in them large enough so that the washer is really loose and wobbles around. When you put a nut on the other end, there should be an inch or so of free space so the washers are loosely held. Laid across the back of the keys, behind the capstans, the weight is disbursed very evenly and holds all the keys down at the back.
hope that helps.


Ed, do you actually prefer this tool to backcheck clip-on weights?
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#2034711 - 02/17/13 11:29 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: James Carney]
Dan Casdorph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 353
Loc: Morgantown, West Virginia
To the original poster:

The piano supply houses have clip on weights to hold the keys down if you have the stack off.
_________________________
Casdorph Piano Service
Morgantown, WV
www.casdorphpiano.com
All pianos are bald ones.

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#2034717 - 02/17/13 11:40 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: James Carney]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 438
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
The advantage to the threaded rod tool is that it takes a lot less time to put on, and you avoid the problem of the clip-on leads falling off while you're reaching in. That said, I use the clip-ons, only because I haven't taken the time to make the rod gizmo.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2034721 - 02/17/13 11:49 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
That's probably not the only clip on device you have, Zeno
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#2034802 - 02/17/13 02:37 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: BoseEric]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 438
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
?
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2034822 - 02/17/13 03:25 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: Zeno Wood]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood
?


Same here…. I don't get that one either...

I don’t have the clip-ons but the older weights with the carpet tacks embedded. With the clip-ons can they not be bent slightly so the clip has to be opened a little for attachment? That way they would not slip so much.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2034833 - 02/17/13 03:52 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 433
Loc: new york city
I've borrowed another tech's weights for the last 10 or so regulations I've done and they work great - maybe 2 or 3 slipped off in 10 jobs, no big deal. And yes, the clips seem to fit a variety of backchecks. I also haven't had to use too many slit punchings once the stack goes back on for the final pass, which has been nice.

I guess I just don't want to spend $90. on lead, so if the steel rod works as well as backcheck weights that would be a nice option.
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#2035100 - 02/18/13 03:00 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
one have to weight the washers to obtain a similar weight as the lead, I am unsure washers are heavy enough, unless they are so large they would fall of the keys.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2035118 - 02/18/13 05:11 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
In theory, we are told the lead approximates the weight of the action. In practice, the washers and rod work just as well. It probably works out at 4-5 big washers per key. That's plenty.

All refinements are done with the action fully assembled and sitting in place on the Keybed anyway.


Edited by rxd (02/18/13 05:15 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2035300 - 02/18/13 02:07 PM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
I tested without much success (uneven weight) did you atually use such a goodie ? Indeed the final is done in the piano, but it is necessary to do a basic key dressing when the keys are rebushed/ repaired.

It is fast to use sliced punchings if one does not allow "holes" to install.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2035652 - 02/19/13 03:52 AM Re: How do I adjust the height of grand piano keys? [Re: sistimorgan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Try largest thinner washers with small holes and smaller spindle. worked for me. Correct. it's not perfectly even. It works just as well as any other method. I found it faster than fiddlng with clipons. Some fine adjustment is necessary with everything fully assembled and in place. Precise weight doesn't seem important to the tool being fit for purpose. Lead weights arent precise either.

There must be thousands of these tools of one description or another in workshops throughout the 'States. I've used a few of them myself in my wandervogel. (learning travels). Surely they can't all be wrong?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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