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Dear distinguished Members of this Piano World Forum,

It has been many years since my last request for help from you, and I reamin forever grateful to all of you. I have not participated with solutions or opinions inasmuch as I lack the knowledge and experience when it comes to matters of pianos. Besides, "who would dare tread where Gods gather" - only a fool! Nevertheless, I keep track of many subjects discussed in this, most excellent Piano World Forum. I am humbled by all of you and admire you as well.

Please, forgive me but I need your help once again. Thus, I pose the following question to you: Who are the experts in this forum that have made (or are making) "Carbon Fiber Soundboards" successfully, in this forum?

Allow me to state that the above mentioned request is addressed to experts who, although lovers of wood (mainly Sitka Spruce for soundboards), are also open to the use of materials derived from "fossil" sources, in pianos. I am not being dissrespectful to you; its just that I already know your position from previous postings I have read. My interest at this time is on the technical and one of a kind construction aspects of "carbon fiber soundboards."

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation with this request. I look forward to your replies.

See Steingraeber and the Phoenix system.
http://steingraeberpianos.com/news/phoenix.html
Phoenix agraffe system grabs the strings and holds them to the bridge, hence, no down bearing needed.
Carbon fibre soundboard.

We viewed this piano at a PTG/CAPT? meeting in Montreal. The piano came from Toronto that day and they put it together out of the truck, and the tuning still sounded great. (No soundboard change due to humidity since soundboard is not wood.)

I think it is $20,000 - $30,000 extra on top of the regular price for a Steingraeber piano.

Dear Mark,

Thank you for your reply and for pointing me to Steingraeber's Pianos website. I am very familiar with their website inasmuch as I have visited their website many times for the past six months; hoping that they would post technical information on how "carbon fiber soundboards" are actually constructed, but to no avail! I don't think that any piano manufacturer is going to open up their construction secrets to me or any one else to learn the minusa of the construction of their sounboards.

Perhaps, in addition to forum experts in "carbon fiber soundboard", there might be a very, very good book on how these boards are made from concept to completion. I just have not been able to find any valuable information in the Internet or at the library covering this subject. Thank you very much for your help and please keep me in mind if you come accross technical books, websites, etc. providing clear details.

I am quite sure there is no poster on PW who considers themselves an expert in CF soundboards. The few high-end companies working with this technology will not be racing to share their hard-earned insights with the world - why should they give up any competitive edge?

Carbon fiber piano soundboard technology is still so new and relatively unused (I would guess probably fewer than maybe two hundred instruments) that you will not find much technical information in the public realm - books etc. But CF stringed instruments have been around for a while - guitars, violins, 'cellos etc, so you could find something there. I am sure there is a forum on non-traditional violins etc.

How will these new (and expensive) carbon fibre soundboard pianos compete with old pianos? I know I never need to buy a new piano because of how many old ones are out there. It kinda kills the market for carbon fibre pianos (unless you are greedy and be selling them for $100,000).

Now if they could make these carbon fibre pianos at an affordable price then that would be a different story. Any fool can make something more expensive.

Hi Members,

Thank you for your recent replies, yet these address questions I didn't asked. Please, see my initial request for information.

In any event, does anyone knows or knows how to get in touch with a fellow member by the the handle name of "fourthgenerationpianorestoration." His name is Jeffrey T. Swensen, and he once posted the following statement here in the forum:

Re: Carbon Fiber Piano
Posting No. 1126007 - 12/11/08 10:21 PM
Today almost everything is synthetic and produced outside the USA . I have made a carbon fiber sound board the piano was an Ivors and Pond 1936 and a throw away. My results were not good. After duplicating the thickness and ribs of the original I had to increase the bow fo these ribs because the pressure of the strings flattened out the board and I lost sound at a-300,A440 was very disappointing but I am trying some new improvements in the crude design I am soon going to try. I need another test subject not as big 5' or smaller grand.

As far as I know, he is the only one in the forum that has mentioned of having made a "carbon fiber soundboard." He said he was going to try "some new improvements." Does any one knows the continuation to his efforts posted here in the forum? I wrote to the email address indicated in the posting "jeffreyswansen@comcast.com" but the email was returned to me as no such address.

Your feedback on this subject and the initial one posted above will be greatly appreciated.

From what I recall, the board has no crown nor does it have ribs.

Nope, It has ribs and crown ....

At least the Steingraeber Phoenix does ..

Gene, are you familiar with the specific piano the OP is referring to?

Hi Gene,

You must be referring to some other posting I don't about in asmuch as "fourthgenerationpianorestoration / Jeffrey T. Swensen" clearly stated in his post and I quote: "After duplicating the thickness and ribs of the original I had to increase the bow fo these ribs . . ."

Thus, Jeffrey's carbon fiber soundboard had ribs given that he clearly stated that he had duplicated his piano's ribs, and furthermore, he made no mention of his carbon fiber soundboard not having a crown. How do you know that ". . . the board has no crown nor does it have ribs." (your post)? Do you know Jeffrey? If you do, would you please mention to him of my interest to communicate with him, and for him to please contact me? Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

Hi Larry,

Do you know "fourthgenerationpianorestoration / Jeffrey T. Swensen", and how much do you know about his carbon fiber soundboard?

Would love to hear some valuable and to the point feedback about this subject!

I don't know of Mr Swenson ....

I revised my last post to ask Gene if he knows of this piano specifically.

Manny, Jeffrey Swensen has not posted in several years. Have you done an exhaustive internet search for the person you are trying to find? Try whitepages.com etc. Also, if he is "fourth generation", it should not be that hard to find him through his family by searching for rebuilders of that same last name.

You will have to do the leg work yourself, and not ask others to tell him to contact you.

I was thinking about the Steingraeber with cf board that toured here several years ago. Ribs serve no purpose, stiffness controlled by board thickness.
Memory says no ribs but not so accurate I suppose.

Hi Gene,

I have a recent 212 Steingraeber Phoenix right here in my place.

It does have ribs.

There is a lot of "conversation" around about these pianos so I'll renew my offer for anyone in the area to come by and play it. It is an extraordinary piano.

Dear Supply - Jurgen Goering,

You are assuming more than you should, and in my opinion you are very abrasive with your replies. I have read some of your posting to other members, and to me, you always come across as a "Debbie Downer." I invite you to abstain yourself from replying to any of my postings, please.

Furthermore, had you paid closer attention to my request, as posted above, you would realized that I am requesting “technical information,” not to be insulted. How do you know whether I already conducted a search on Jeffrey T. Swensen or not? Do not assume anything, unless you have all of the facts available to you!

And to other members, please, do not go on tangents talking about something else other than my request. please.

Thank you very much for your understanding and cooperation to all.

Not here to argue. I am here because I am curious.

All the best!

Hello Manny - In my first post I replied to your question of searching for info on CF boards, in my second post I suggested ways of finding the person you are looking for.

A simple internet search on my part revealed the address of the person you are looking for in less than a minute.

No need to get huffy around here. Oh, and welcome to the Technicians Forum!

PS: on this forum, people often go on tangents talking about other things, which is why some treads run over many pages. Granted: it is best to try to avoid it, but often it cannot be controlled. I hope you find the information you are looking for.

Oh my!, I was under the impression that this is a "Technical Forum" not a "Free-For-All." There are plenty of other sections within this Piano World Forum for that sort of psychology / thinking.

This will be my last posting here, given that my intent is not to alienate but to learn technical aspects about piano. Of course, those of you who cannot stick to the subject and provide correct - technical help may continue with your rantings all you want.

However, piano expert that are yet to reply are more welcome to contact me privately, please. Thank you very much, ahead of time, for any "technical" help you may be able to provide me about my initial "Carbon Fiber Soundboards" request.

Manny, the expertise that you seek is simply not available here, as it is very specialised and very cutting edge! Don't get offended that we can't help you!

All the best.