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#2036942 - 02/21/13 12:38 PM Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know?
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
By slip-inviting, I mean the hardest one to play "correct" in tempo?

I got curious after listening to several recordings of Baba Yaga (Mussorgsky) without finding a single mistake-free performance. Everyone seems to mess around at the same spot, those fast octaves/chords in the right hand.

Not that perfection is something to strive for at the expense of expression, I fully advocate to let that piece run wild rather than be played safe, but my question is just: is there a more slip-inviting moment in a piece that you know of? Maybe to the point where a couple of slips are generally accepted?

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#2036969 - 02/21/13 01:23 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2383
Loc: San Jose, CA
Chopin Scherzo No. 4 is one of the most perilous pieces out there. Actually, all four of them are, because they're so fast and have such delicate figurations, but No. 4 is especially bothersome because of the rapid staccato chords.

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#2036983 - 02/21/13 01:49 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1122
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Feux Follets...

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#2037012 - 02/21/13 02:47 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
slip-inviting? sounds like seduction to me

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#2037025 - 02/21/13 03:26 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5411
The coda to the central march of Schumann's Fantaisie in C, Op.17, where there are leaps in both hands at high speed. Richter's live performances are particularly accident-prone (as is Horowitz's in his comeback concert in Carnegie Hall, 1965, played much more cautiously than Richter), but he never goes for safety.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2037062 - 02/21/13 04:42 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5550
Loc: Orange County, CA
Ligeti, Musica ricercata no. 1

The entire piece (except for the last note) is composed of A's. So if you accidentally touch a note other than A, everybody knows.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2037119 - 02/21/13 05:55 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
FSO Offline
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Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
To my knowledge...likely Michael Finnissy; English Country Tunes.
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Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2037177 - 02/21/13 07:40 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18221
Loc: Victoria, BC
Just about everything I attempt to play!
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Estonia 190

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#2037189 - 02/21/13 08:00 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: BruceD]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8925
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Just about everything I attempt to play!

Well that seems fair enough.

I have not formally studied Beethoven's Op. 101, but my piano teacher told me that in the last movement, four measures after the right hand trills, the right hand 16th notes -d, e, f#- then jumping down to an octave on b, were treacherous for accuracy. And Beethoven at that point asks for a repeat!
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Jason

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#2037194 - 02/21/13 08:10 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7974
Any piece that encourages caution to be thrown to the winds - and there are a lot of them.

Also, Scarlatti's fast leaps seem generally treacherous to me.

Of course, today's young pianobots virtuosi seem not to have such human flaws as making mistakes.

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#2037197 - 02/21/13 08:12 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21810
Loc: Oakland
The other end of the spectrum is difficult, too. I heard it was very difficult to find musicians who could play this:

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#2037282 - 02/22/13 12:55 AM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21810
Loc: Oakland
Here is another piece which can trip you up because of its bare-bones structure. It is hard to hide mistakes in this:


This one has an exotic piano, for those who are into that sort of thing.
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Semipro Tech

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#2037329 - 02/22/13 03:42 AM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5344
Loc: Philadelphia
La Campanella is near the top of my list. Anything with such large leaps makes it easy to miss. Many people tend to have difficulty with the octave leaps at the end. Even Evgeny Kissin in this great performance, where he clocks in at an incredible 3:58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0U73NRSIkw
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#2037476 - 02/22/13 12:00 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 763
Loc: South Carolina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4G-WTzptag as wonderfully played by Claudio Arrau.

I have an almost-lifelong frustration with the giocoso section (@ 4:14) of Fete dieu a seville from Albeniz's Iberia bk 1.

I hate adrenaline. I wish that I can switch it off there.

....and in the realm of the truly er,...spastic: My inability to avoid slips while playing the piano accompaniment to Schumann's Der Nussbaum when sung in the key of G. It's very strange that I have no prob whatsoever with any other key.

(funny, it just hit me that the section of the Albeniz starts in G major!)
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Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

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#2037539 - 02/22/13 02:17 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Rach 2 is maddeningly un-pianistic in so many spots. Most important skill learned - how to fake really well :P
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2037619 - 02/22/13 05:04 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 564
Two spots for me immediately come to mind.

The 4th movement of Mendelssohn's Bb Sonata. There are so many quick bass note jumps. Leaving out a few accompaniment notes (or slowing down) is almost required (at least for me). Also, the entire movement is really tricky to memorize.

In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other. For me, that was by far the most infuriating part of the piece.
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"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2037625 - 02/22/13 05:12 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: DanS]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DanS

In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other. For me, that was by far the most infuriating part of the piece.


I agree, although I would argue there are more difficult parts in the piece. It's very tough to get, but once you master it it's like ballet.

Also, I'd say (since I listen to MANY performances of both) that a lot of people slip in the climax of Ondine, and the climax(es) of Scarbo, the terrifying two chord part.

Also, the Heroic Polonaise seems to invite finger slippage in parts, and I always seem to catch something when I listen to live performances.

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#2037632 - 02/22/13 05:25 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: didyougethathing]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 564
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: DanS

In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other. For me, that was by far the most infuriating part of the piece.


I agree, although I would argue there are more difficult parts in the piece. It's very tough to get, but once you master it it's like ballet.


Yeah, I know, that's the strange part. The climax and the decending 3rd/4th parts are WAY harder, yet I was able to eventually get them in my hands, but that cross hand thing...ugh. I never could get it even close to the way I wanted it to sound. Also, I never made it through Scarbo. I got about a third of the way in and ran away blush
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2037651 - 02/22/13 05:56 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Liszt's Mazeppa is high up there!

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#2037695 - 02/22/13 07:29 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 122
Loc: London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Maybe Lavapies from Iberia!
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Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus

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#2037970 - 02/23/13 12:52 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
musica71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 424
Loc: Bend, Or.
I find the Chopin Mazurka Op. 59 #2 a thorn in my side. Every time I review it there is a new fire to put out!
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Musica 71

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#2037982 - 02/23/13 01:15 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: DanS]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 353
Originally Posted By: DanS


In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other.


That shouldn't be happening. If your right wrist/forearm is sufficiently low, and your left sufficiently high, and if you raise your left off the keys after playing the octave Bs, there will no danger of colliding hands.

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#2038032 - 02/23/13 02:56 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Rachmaninoff 1 sonata. You have to be a complete robot not to [censored] that up SOMEWHERE.
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2038078 - 02/23/13 04:44 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19578
Loc: New York City
NO NO NO!A transcription of this song would clearly be the winner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_H-LY4Jb2M


Edited by pianoloverus (02/23/13 04:46 PM)

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#2038093 - 02/23/13 05:12 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: Kuanpiano]
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 335
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Rach 2 is maddeningly un-pianistic in so many spots. Most important skill learned - how to fake really well :P


http://www.brendankinsella.com/Rachmaninoff.mp3

cool

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#2038539 - 02/24/13 04:25 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2659
Loc: Netherlands
Liszt, sonata, octave-passage page 4/5
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Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#2038635 - 02/24/13 06:52 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: Lemon Pledge]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 564
Originally Posted By: Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted By: DanS


In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other.


That shouldn't be happening. If your right wrist/forearm is sufficiently low, and your left sufficiently high, and if you raise your left off the keys after playing the octave Bs, there will no danger of colliding hands.
So I should keep the upper hand up high and the lower hand low?
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2038646 - 02/24/13 07:20 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: DanS]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5411
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted By: DanS


In Ondine (no, not where you think). Near the beginning, when the intro melody reenters and the acc figure is playing the +5 figure up and down the octaves (right before the C# m9). I could never get from the B to the C# without my hand bumping each other.


That shouldn't be happening. If your right wrist/forearm is sufficiently low, and your left sufficiently high, and if you raise your left off the keys after playing the octave Bs, there will no danger of colliding hands.
So I should keep the upper hand up high and the lower hand low?


Are you playing the LH melody with LH above RH all through that section, or skipping from underhand to overhand and vice versa? Assuming you're playing the whole lot with LH overhand, the RH needs to keep low to the keys throughout, and play the LH very detached, staccato even (the pedal does the rest), to allow enough time to move out of the way of the RH.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2038668 - 02/24/13 08:16 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: davaofthekeys]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 564
That upper/lower hand comment was loosely veiled, but friendly sarcasm. wink

I spent a little bit of time yesterday on this part. I think the problem I have with it is that I'm trying to make those 8va rolls as slow as I can(with the top note landing on the beat, obviously)...Think Bernsteins version of the orchestated Alborada. Those big rolled chord from the piano version (starting with the G7 over the F#s) take forever to happen, I just love that. That's the sound I'm going for there. That being said, I have pretty big hands and my LH pinky gets hit by my big fat RH on it's way down.

It's been years since I've spent any serious time on this one...maybe it's time
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2038728 - 02/24/13 10:58 PM Re: Which is the most slip-inviting piece you know? [Re: dolce sfogato]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ScriabinAddict
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Rach 2 is maddeningly un-pianistic in so many spots. Most important skill learned - how to fake really well :P


http://www.brendankinsella.com/Rachmaninoff.mp3

cool

Kayy, I play just a biiiit better than that :P. Just I have no orchestra!
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Liszt, sonata, octave-passage page 4/5

OMG YES THAT PASSAGE KILLS ME!


Edited by Kuanpiano (02/25/13 08:19 AM)
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Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
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Franck - Violin Sonata

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