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#2037264 - 02/21/13 11:25 PM Yamaha G2 or GC1?
Jason Zhao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 58
Hi everyone!
I've narrowed down my choices and so far, these two are my top choices...

Yamaha GC1 (New): $14,900 including GST
or
Yamaha G2 (18 year old) : $15,000 including GST

Do you think an 18 year old G2 would be better than the new Yamaha GC1 in terms of sound, touch, longetivity, and such?

Thanks for all that reply!!!

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#2037368 - 02/22/13 07:49 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
How well has the G2 been maintained? Have you had a technician look at it (not one the store provides, but an independent one that works for you)? At 18 years, you may be looking into some major work, it's getting up there for a piano. Also, be sure that it's not a grey market instrument. Get the serial # and look it up, if it was made for Japanese market then avoid that. Either go with the brand new GC1 or keep looking for a used larger piano.
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2037378 - 02/22/13 08:17 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Dustin Spray Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 51
Loc: Central Illinois
Whats a grey market instrument? Whats the potential concern with one made for the Japanese market?

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#2037387 - 02/22/13 08:36 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Dustin Spray]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
There are threads galore on this topic if you do a search. Essentially, grey market refers to a used Yamaha that is sent over here to be sold in the U.S. without the blessing of the Yamaha Corporation. The Japanese culture seems to frown on the concept of purchasing used articles, especially pianos, so these pianos are reconditioned by third parties and sent to dealers here to be sold in our used marketplace at attractive price points. the controversy/concern comes from the fact that Yamaha claims that these pianos have not been "seasoned" for the U.S. climate, and therefore will not hold up over time. Many assert that this claim is made because these pianos represent the largest source of competition to the sale of new Yamahas. If you think about it, the U.S. has the largest ranges of climate variation of just about any country on the planet, so how Yamaha, or any other piano company, could effectively "season" a piano for the U.S. market without knowing where that piano will wind up in advance is pretty silly.


Edited by CC2 and Chopin lover (02/22/13 08:38 AM)
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#2037423 - 02/22/13 09:49 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Steven Y. A. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Toronto
I thought G2 is not being sold in north america? I think for the money you can get a nice used C2. or just buy the new GC1, if you are satisifed with the bass.
_________________________
PLEYEL P124

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#2037426 - 02/22/13 10:13 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
There are threads galore on this topic if you do a search. Essentially, grey market refers to a used Yamaha that is sent over here to be sold in the U.S. without the blessing of the Yamaha Corporation. The Japanese culture seems to frown on the concept of purchasing used articles, especially pianos, so these pianos are reconditioned by third parties and sent to dealers here to be sold in our used marketplace at attractive price points. the controversy/concern comes from the fact that Yamaha claims that these pianos have not been "seasoned" for the U.S. climate, and therefore will not hold up over time. Many assert that this claim is made because these pianos represent the largest source of competition to the sale of new Yamahas. If you think about it, the U.S. has the largest ranges of climate variation of just about any country on the planet, so how Yamaha, or any other piano company, could effectively "season" a piano for the U.S. market without knowing where that piano will wind up in advance is pretty silly.


Except that I happen to have purchased one of these grey market pianos and DID have a lot of issues with climate change because of the huge humidity swings in central Wisconsin. The problems lessened once I was able to stabilize the humidity as much as possible, but it's very difficult to do. It is my understanding that other used instruments do not have such issues (my Petrof never really suffered as much as the Yamaha did). It is also my understanding that new Yamahas sold in the US do not have such issues.

Of course every piano benefits from stable humidity, but the grey market pianos from my experience and that of a fellow piano teacher seem to have greater issues that arise from humidity changes.
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2037447 - 02/22/13 11:13 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Morodiene]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
That still does not explain how Yamaha can "season" any of their instruments for the "United States" market. Let's say I live in Arizona and purchase a new Yamaha piano. Two years later I move to your area of Wisconsin, and I, like you, find it very difficult to stabilize the piano's environment. If it was even possible for Yamaha to have known, and "seasoned" the piano for the Arizona climate, would I not still have those issues with a non "grey market" Yamaha once I got up to your neck of the woods? And, if not, please explain why?
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#2037464 - 02/22/13 11:45 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
That still does not explain how Yamaha can "season" any of their instruments for the "United States" market. Let's say I live in Arizona and purchase a new Yamaha piano. Two years later I move to your area of Wisconsin, and I, like you, find it very difficult to stabilize the piano's environment. If it was even possible for Yamaha to have known, and "seasoned" the piano for the Arizona climate, would I not still have those issues with a non "grey market" Yamaha once I got up to your neck of the woods? And, if not, please explain why?


Can you explain why people who own brand new Yamahas in WI do not have the extent of troubles I had with mine - and also another pianist I know who also bought a grey market Yamaha from the same place? She purchased a new Yamaha a couple of years later and did not have the problems, and my Petrof did not have the issue either.

I'm not a technician, so I can't explain it. All I can do is give my experience and advice based on what I do know.
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2037475 - 02/22/13 12:00 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Morodiene]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
The explanation probably lies in the quality, or lack thereof, of the restoration work that was done on the instrument, not the "seasoning". By the way, you needn't be a technician to see that what I am saying makes logical sense. This concept of "seasoning" is nonsense. Where, on Steinway's or Bosendorfer's website do you see the claim that they "season" their instruments based on their destinations? How would they even know where their final "micro" destinations are going to be when they are in the manufacturing process? If I walk into Steinway Hall and tell them I want to buy a "B" for my home in Wisconsin, do you think they are going to take me to a room marked "Wisconsin Bound Instruments" and offer me only those? I've been to Steinway Hall many times and have never come across the "Wisconsin Room". Yet, you could logically argue that the difference between the Arizona climate and the Florida climate in this country is just as stark as the difference between Japan and any particular area of the U.S.


Edited by CC2 and Chopin lover (02/22/13 12:09 PM)
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#2037492 - 02/22/13 12:20 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
KurtZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 852
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Morodiene,

I have to agree with the above post. Your story while undoubted is a bit of an outlier. You admit that you didn't attend to humidity control until you had problems with the piano. Did you attend to humidity control with your Petrof? Your friend who bought from the same place, did she do anything for humidity control? Or does it say something about where you bought as suggested by CC2?

Given the jillions of grey market U series that are out there getting almost absurd prices for their age, don't you think we'd hear more horror stories than the few we do hear like yours? Since so many of these are sold by brokers with at least nominal warranties, don't you think they would stop selling them if their profit was being eaten up by pernicious warranty claims? Wisconsin and Florida are both difficult climate states for all wood products and given the extremes between the two it begs the question yet again, which USA are they seasoned for? Maybe the real problem is that the early Yamaha production simply wasn't seasoned enough to begin with.
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I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

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#2037499 - 02/22/13 12:39 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 384
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
Knight Piano Company out of England used to have this slogan on the inside of their piano lids... Specifically Seasoned for the US climate... um... pretty broad climatic regions there isn't it ?. They were heavier with a plate thickness of 4 inches but not sure about seasoned. I like my pianos plain, no extra seasoning or MSG
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#2037504 - 02/22/13 12:55 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Jason Zhao

Yamaha GC1 (New): $14,900 including GST
or
Yamaha G2 (18 year old) : $15,000 including GST

Do you think an 18 year old G2 would be better than the new Yamaha GC1 in terms of sound, touch, longetivity, and such?


At that price, forget the G2. A brand new GC2 isn't far off in price. A GC2 usually cost less than a new C1.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2037573 - 02/22/13 03:31 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
The explanation probably lies in the quality, or lack thereof, of the restoration work that was done on the instrument, not the "seasoning". By the way, you needn't be a technician to see that what I am saying makes logical sense. This concept of "seasoning" is nonsense. Where, on Steinway's or Bosendorfer's website do you see the claim that they "season" their instruments based on their destinations? How would they even know where their final "micro" destinations are going to be when they are in the manufacturing process? If I walk into Steinway Hall and tell them I want to buy a "B" for my home in Wisconsin, do you think they are going to take me to a room marked "Wisconsin Bound Instruments" and offer me only those? I've been to Steinway Hall many times and have never come across the "Wisconsin Room". Yet, you could logically argue that the difference between the Arizona climate and the Florida climate in this country is just as stark as the difference between Japan and any particular area of the U.S.


It very well could be due to the restoration process that this particular dealer used (or the company they farmed it out to). In which case, is that not a valid reason for caution when purchasing grey market? Are there specific refurbishing companies that a buyer can look for in a grey market instrument to avoid getting a bad one?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2037694 - 02/22/13 07:26 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
This concept of "seasoning" is nonsense. Where, on Steinway's or Bosendorfer's website do you see the claim that they "season" their instruments based on their destinations? How would they even know where their final "micro" destinations are going to be when they are in the manufacturing process?


Steinway and Bösendorfer are not good examples. They make far too few pianos every year to even bother to regionalize their products. Manufacturers will regionalize in order to maximize profit when the numbers make sense. Since California have the highest standards in air emissions, would it follow that BMW or Mercedes would manufacture every single car to pass the California emissions, even those for Asia, Middle East markets? Absolutely not. Only the cars destined for the US are made to pass the California emission standards. Why spend more making a product than you have to? Bösendorfer only made 160 pianos last year, half of them came to the US, so of course it makes no sense to season for the US, they are all seasoned for the US. Yamaha made tens of thousands of pianos a year, so it absolutely makes no sense to season every piano for the deserts of Arizona for the thousands that will spend their lives in 95% humidity in Asia.

The issue is simple. Wood skrinks as it dries. What's better, build a piano using dried wood to a specific tolerance or build the same piano using wet wood to that same tolerance then let it dry as a whole in a new dry climate? The tolerance will change. So if the owner lives in Miami or Hong Kong, no big deal, but if the owner lives in Phoenix, it would have been better to have the piano that was built initially using dried wood even if it moved there from Miami.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2037728 - 02/22/13 09:14 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Dustin Spray Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 51
Loc: Central Illinois
Ive been seeing alot of postings on Craigslist saying that pianos have been shipped to and from "Europe" and "Japan" for reconditioning and refinishing. Is this a reg flag for something?

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#2037797 - 02/23/13 01:34 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Jason Zhao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 58
The G2 sounds incredible that's for sure. Better than the GC1 by a ton. But I'm scared of the durability and longetivity of the piano.
And I'm not sure what a gray market piano is

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#2038175 - 02/23/13 09:40 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Quote:
And I'm not sure what a gray market piano is


I, and several others, have just explained it for you and the other poster who asked about it. Please go back and read all the posts in this thread that you started, and you will learn what that term means.


Edited by CC2 and Chopin lover (02/23/13 09:41 PM)
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#2038179 - 02/23/13 09:49 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Quote:
It very well could be due to the restoration process that this particular dealer used (or the company they farmed it out to). In which case, is that not a valid reason for caution when purchasing grey market? Are there specific refurbishing companies that a buyer can look for in a grey market instrument to avoid getting a bad one?


The "grey market" restoration work is done in Japan, then the pianos are shipped here in containers and dealers all over the country purchase them. Can you be specific as to the issues and problems that you and your friend had with these pianos that you attribute to them being "grey market"?
_________________________
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#2038317 - 02/24/13 07:46 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
Quote:
It very well could be due to the restoration process that this particular dealer used (or the company they farmed it out to). In which case, is that not a valid reason for caution when purchasing grey market? Are there specific refurbishing companies that a buyer can look for in a grey market instrument to avoid getting a bad one?


The "grey market" restoration work is done in Japan, then the pianos are shipped here in containers and dealers all over the country purchase them. Can you be specific as to the issues and problems that you and your friend had with these pianos that you attribute to them being "grey market"?


Yes. The piano would not hold it's tune well at all. Within a week of tuning it would go out. Also, screws would come loose in the action causing "clicks" as I played and the effectiveness of that key would diminish considerably (less dynamic control). I had my tuner show me how to fix this myself since it happened so often and wasn't worth calling her in each time it happened. It would also get very bright sounding (hardened hammers?) so the tuner would have to take steps to soften them a bit. Sometimes the keys would get so bad that they wouldn't make any sound at all, just a "thunk" when you hit it. According to my current tuner, there is no crown left in the soundboard and it's terribly cracked. I recall from my conversations with my friend who had one from the same place that she experienced identical issues to mine.

These things did stabilize more with the Dammp-chaser installed and with a large room humidifier placed underneath the piano during the dry winter months. The clicking would happen once in a while, but much less often, and the tuning was much better. It didn't solve the problems completely, but made the instrument something that I was able to enjoy rather than worry about constantly. These issues occurred within 4-5 years of purchasing, so after the warranty with the dealer had run out.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2038322 - 02/24/13 08:04 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Dustin Spray Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 51
Loc: Central Illinois
Whats the best way for a potential buyer/owner to check to make sure he/she isnt getting a "grey" market piano and to avoid these pitfalls. Also i there anyway to verify "grey" market restoration work done in Japan? Im consisdering buying a Yamaha grand in the future and trying to educate myself a tad. I will search more and see what I can as I was totally unaware of this scheme.

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#2038360 - 02/24/13 10:13 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Dustin Spray]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
You can check the serial # on the piano you are considering with the Yamaha website. They will tell you if the piano was "intended" for the U.S. market
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#2038364 - 02/24/13 10:17 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
You can check the serial # on the piano you are considering with the Yamaha website. They will tell you if the piano was "intended" for the U.S. market


But as you were saying, my experience is not typical for these refurbished instruments. So then it's more a matter of who did the refurbishing, and not the fact that it's grey market, right?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2038702 - 02/24/13 09:59 PM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Jason Zhao]
Jason Zhao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 58
Ok, now I understand what it means.
I've tried it and the piano plays well. Dynamic ranges and such are all perfect for me. The only thing I'm worried about is if the piano will only by temporarily like that and break down later.

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#2038853 - 02/25/13 06:07 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: Morodiene]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Quote:
But as you were saying, my experience is not typical for these refurbished instruments. So then it's more a matter of who did the refurbishing, and not the fact that it's grey market, right?


Correct. So, therefore, you handle a purchase of one of these pianos the way you would any other restored instrument.....by hiring a highly expert technician to check out things like tuning pin torque and pinblock integrity, quality of restoration work and let him/her make their recommendation. talk to others who have purchased a similar instrument from this dealer (ask for references). Then you make sure that you can get the maximum warranty available from the dealer. Compare the warranty other dealers and rebuilders are offering on similar, non grey market pianos and insist on that coverage, or walk. Then, most important of all, control the Relative Humidity in the piano's environment from DAY ONE.


Edited by CC2 and Chopin lover (02/25/13 06:09 AM)
_________________________
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#2038888 - 02/25/13 07:42 AM Re: Yamaha G2 or GC1? [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
Quote:
But as you were saying, my experience is not typical for these refurbished instruments. So then it's more a matter of who did the refurbishing, and not the fact that it's grey market, right?


Correct. So, therefore, you handle a purchase of one of these pianos the way you would any other restored instrument.....by hiring a highly expert technician to check out things like tuning pin torque and pinblock integrity, quality of restoration work and let him/her make their recommendation. talk to others who have purchased a similar instrument from this dealer (ask for references). Then you make sure that you can get the maximum warranty available from the dealer. Compare the warranty other dealers and rebuilders are offering on similar, non grey market pianos and insist on that coverage, or walk. Then, most important of all, control the Relative Humidity in the piano's environment from DAY ONE.


Great advice. Where was PW 10 years ago?? smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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