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#2039029 - 02/25/13 01:46 PM Best UTs for Jazz
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Occasionally, I have to tune for hard-core jazz pianists. I have had good luck with several temperaments besides ET...

Moscow EBPT of 1895
EBVT3

I'm thinking that a Neidhardt would also make a good choice as well.

Does anyone have suggestions as to any other good choices for both solo piano and piano as part of an ensemble?

Thanks,
-Joe
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#2039109 - 02/25/13 03:29 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Gene Nelson Offline
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Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1464
Loc: Old Hangtown California
For the few jazz pianists that I have worked for they are the most critical.
The way they use the fast beating intervals, if they did not progress smoothly they would be sure to notice.
I had not considered an unequal temperament.
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#2039117 - 02/25/13 03:43 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7169
Loc: France
not suiteable for modern jazz harmony in my opinion.

Too much "suggested harmonies" the skeleton have to be really clean
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#2039208 - 02/25/13 06:28 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hi Gene and Isaac,

It seems unanimous. ET only.

Thanks for the advice smile

-Joe
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2039218 - 02/25/13 06:50 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1092
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Gene and Isaac,
It seems unanimous. ET only.
Thanks for the advice smile
-Joe


Not so fast! I have a number of non-classical musicians that have lost all interest in ET. Jazzers are among them.
Songwriters have also been drawn to the variety found in the WT's I sell. I use a Coleman temperament, which progresses evenly from a 10 cent third at C-E to a 17 cent third at F#-A#. Nothing very far off the norm, but there is a distinctly different feel to the piano, and many players respond to it in a very positive way.

For any pianist that rarely ventures beyond 4 sharps or flats, the WT's generate less dissonance throughout the music, so there is no reason to avoid them if you have a tech that knows what they are doing.
Regards,

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#2039232 - 02/25/13 07:09 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hello Ed,

Are you using the Coleman 10?

According to the Rollingball site: "...Coleman decided to make the Coleman 10 have 1/2 the deviation values of the Coleman 11 just in case someone wants an even milder temperament."

I checked the offsets at TuneLabWorld.com. They don't have them for the 10, but they do have them for the 11. So, I would just divide the offsets for the 11 by 2?

Also according to the Rollingball.com site, the 11 offsets A by 1.0 cents. Would this be unnecessary with the 10?

Thank you for the advice. smile

Thanks,
-Joe
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2039282 - 02/25/13 08:48 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 375
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
I think the jazz folks are all about color, surprise, inspiration. The unequal temperaments I have heard are delightful. I'm very interested in them.

Forrest
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#2039334 - 02/25/13 10:47 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1092
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Ed,

Are you using the Coleman 10?

I checked the offsets at TuneLabWorld.com. They don't have them for the 10, but they do have them for the 11. So, I would just divide the offsets for the 11 by 2?

Also according to the Rollingball.com site, the 11 offsets A by 1.0 cents. Would this be unnecessary with the 10?


Greetings,
I use the Coleman 11 more than almost anything, but you can use half values to get an even milder form. The 1 cent correction isn't really necessary, as most pianos move this much in the time it takes to get them tuned.
Regards,

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#2039337 - 02/25/13 10:58 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Ed Foote]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Quote:
Greetings,
I use the Coleman 11 more than almost anything, but you can use half values to get an even milder form. The 1 cent correction isn't really necessary, as most pianos move this much in the time it takes to get them tuned.
Regards,


Thank you ! smile


Edited by daniokeeper (02/25/13 10:58 PM)
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#2039349 - 02/25/13 11:17 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Far too many things in jazz piano for a listener to be immersed in for a mild deviation in temperament to be noticed IMHO. All the serious jazz pianists I know like a nice crisp ET with some extra stretch and sparkle in the treble and the linear smooth shifts that ET produces...they are not puffing out out Clair de lune.
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#2039440 - 02/26/13 06:24 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1092
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Far too many things in jazz piano for a listener to be immersed in for a mild deviation in temperament to be noticed IMHO. All the serious jazz pianists I know like a nice crisp ET with some extra stretch and sparkle in the treble and the linear smooth shifts that ET produces...they are not puffing out out Clair de lune.


Greetings,
We have very different experiences. All of my customers have, by now, played on and listened to a variety of WT's. (I have them spread all over town, in and out of professional venues). Half the jazzers I deal with really like the feel of a mild WT, a fourth hate it, and a fourth really can't tell much difference. These are people that listen pretty closely.
ET has its own sound, but one cannot completely discern (grok) it until there is something different heard to compare. I had tuned strict ET professionally for years when I listened to my first WT. ET never sounded the same, after that. It's good, it's usable, but it is only one sound, and pianos, I have learned, can create totally different sounds and moods when the harmony is not homogenized.

If I want the ET sound in a WT, I can play in A or Eb, they both feel about the same as ET. The V is a little more restless than the I or IV in the former, whereas it is more relaxed in the latter. Not that anybody I have ever encountered could tell if a piano was tuned in WT rather than ET when listening to something played in either of these two keys. Compare this to say, the key of B, in which the IV is the screamer, to use one jazzer's word. Or a key like F#, which never lets up, but produces a very murky tension, etc. This is what the songwriters and jazz players talk like when they talk about the tuning difference.

Those without the comparison in their ears don't talk about it at all.
Regards

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#2039565 - 02/26/13 11:24 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Ed, I can certainly understand that some jazz artists are more experimental as far as temperaments go. It certainly would be a benefit for a tech to have UT's available in their skill set to address this for these artists. Unfortunately an ugly head always appears with UT's as soon as one begins to restrict what keys to play in. Not all artists are comfortable shifting their repertoir from key to key with this in mind, especially when accompanied by other musicians. Vocalist accompanyment is especially sensative to key signature as are some fixed pitch instruments. This is the single greatest benefit of ET in that a specific sound or feel (in regards to the temperament)to the music gets transmitted universally in a similar fashion in every key. Does an artist need the hassle of transcribing the music to get what they want? No. Can they learn/practice and perfom in a key that the peice was originally intended to be played. Yes. UT's throw a proverbial wrench into this freedom. Some artists can work around it, some can even claim to benefit from it....but don't kid yourself in the notion that ET has been universally adopted and accepted for the last near century because it has shortcomings that outweigh its benefits. Musicians are not in the dark on this.


Edited by Emmery (02/26/13 11:25 AM)
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#2039619 - 02/26/13 01:07 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1618
Loc: Chicagoland
It might help to differentiate between strengths of temperaments - the Rollingball site is valuable for this! The major thirds in ET are almost 14 cents from pure...

A "full strength" circulating temperament will limit the widest thirds to around 21 cents from pure. While each key is still usable, the contrast might be a bit much for modern ears to accept, even though there are players that want that type of contrast.

The temperaments that Ed were referring to limit the widest thirds to about 17 cents from pure, just 3 more cents than ET. This level seems to be the threshold for 'modern ears' to realize that something might be different, without really being able to articulate the difference without training.

The 'stealth' temperaments work in the range of the widest third being around 15-16 cents wide of pure.
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#2039846 - 02/26/13 08:32 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Gene and Isaac,

It seems unanimous. ET only.

Thanks for the advice smile

-Joe


Hey Joe,

I think you will find the ET only advice to be unanimous among many. It is what they believe. There is only one way to tune a piano! I did not vote, however.

Unfortunately, that single minded goal and belief has lead to quite the opposite result in all too many cases. I won't say now what that result is because it always provokes too much anger and resentment. I just know it to be so very true in so many instances.

I have tuned pianos for Jazz artists the past 24 years in anything but ET and never had a complaint, much less a comment such as, "Hey these thirds are all uneven!, what's going on here?"

Even the esteemed Steinway technician for Vladimir Horowitz was known to say, "No artist ever asked me or complained about uneven thirds". Yet, that technician only ever claimed to tune ET.

My history of tuning non-equal temperaments for Jazz artists alone, aside from any other kind of music or musicians goes back quite far. Dave Brubeck, Fats Domino, Ray Charles, Mose Allison, Lyle Mays and many others associated with famous named Jazz artists or groups could go on indefinitely.

Roscoe Mitchell, a Madison, WI based Avant-Guard composer and Jazz artist has been my customer since 1978. I tuned two pianos for his group for a 2007 CD recording in the EBVT III. Joan Wildman, a UW-Madison retired Professor of Jazz Piano Performance has been a client of mine for over 20 years. I have never tuned her piano in ET! I tuned it yesterday for a recording session in my usual EBVT III. She is still a leading voice in our community regarding the progressive movement in music. Nothing in her work requires ET.

Patrick Wingren who is a Professor of Jazz performance at Jacobstad, Finland and and RPT and now PTG Certified Tuning Examiner (an occasional contributor here) also uses non-equal temperaments.

A local colleague of mine has used non-equal temperaments for some 30 years in salon concerts at his dealership. These concerts include both classical music and Jazz.

The "What do ya know?" show which usually emanates from Madison and features local Jazz artist, John Thulin, has never been tuned in ET!

If it were true that Jazz somehow required ET, all of these examples would tend to prove that notion to be completely false, which it is.

To answer your original question, I suggest you try the 1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament. You will find all 4ths & 5ths to sound virtually the same as they do in ET but you will also find the key color you are looking for.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2039850 - 02/26/13 08:46 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21255
Loc: Oakland
I think the question is like asking what is the best digital piano for Monteverdi.
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#2039866 - 02/26/13 09:06 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Very interesting response.

Thank you Bill.


This quote fro you is particularly interesting:
Even the esteemed Steinway technician for Vladimir Horowitz was known to say, "No artist ever asked me or complained about uneven thirds". Yet, that technician only ever claimed to tune ET.

If it's who I think it is, I have his book smile

It's interesting that you suggest the 1/9th CM over the 1/10th CM?

I may get a chance to try 1/9CM out later this week. I have a client that plays everything from Bach to jazz to modern experimental music. We spent considerable time on the phone this evening discussing UTs. I even referred him to the rollingball.com site.

For Bill and/or anyone else, would it be appropriate for Bach to be played in 1/9CM or 1/10CM? If ET is OK for Bach, it would seem to me that a 1/9CM or 1/10CM would be at least as appropriate. Or, would tuning this way ruin the effect of J.S.Bach's music?

Bill, I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in on this. I know you are one of the great authorities on UTs.

Thanks,
-Joe smile
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Joe Gumbosky
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#2039925 - 02/27/13 12:22 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Actually, never mind the question re Modified Meantone and Bach.

There are recordings available on YouTube of Serkin playing Bach. Since he uses a modified meantone...

Well, if using a modified meantone for Bach is good enough for him, then...

Thanks,
-Joe smile
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Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2039934 - 02/27/13 12:51 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
Equal temperament is a modified meantone, and meantone is a modified equal temperament!
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#2040029 - 02/27/13 08:38 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Joe,

I think you'll like what you hear in the 1/9 Comma Meantone. I use it for cocktail lounge pianos. There is one church sanctuary piano I use it for where the music director likes key color and contrast but has a lower threshold for harshness than most people.

Back when we were discussing these ultra mild meantones in September, I asked Jason Kanter to graph them. He promised to do so and also send me some other enlightening information but he said he was quite busy at the moment. Unfortunately, he has not come through on that yet.

I have never tried the 1/10 Comma Meantone because my ETD, the SAT IV will only accept tenths deviations rather than hundredths. I can't imagine it sounding much different from ET. Did you find any particular value in it?

Even the version of 1/9 Comma Meantone that I use is a rounded off type. It is a -2.4 cent 5ths whereas a true 1/9th has some smaller numbers.

When I tune the 1/7 Comma Meantone, I simply program -3.0 5ths which is quite easy to do. At one time, I asked Jason Kanter to graph both the -3.0 5ths and a true 1/7 CMT and the results were essentially identical. I figured that the same would be true for -2.4 cent 5ths vs. true 1/9 CMT.

The 1/9 CMT is very much along the lines of the other very mild WT's that Ron and Ed have mentioned. The largest deviation from ET is +2.4 cents. The widest M3 is +17.2 cents. The narrowest is +12 cents. The "wolf" 5th is the same amount wide as all other 5ths are narrow.

1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament

C:+1.2
C#:-1.6
D:+0.4
D#:+2.4
E:-0.4
F:+1.6
F#:-1.2
G:+0.8
G#:-2.0
A: 0.0
A#:+2.0
B:-0.8
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#2040391 - 02/27/13 09:14 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Quote:
I have never tried the 1/10 Comma Meantone because my ETD, the SAT IV will only accept tenths deviations rather than hundredths. I can't imagine it sounding much different from ET. Did you find any particular value in it?

It's funny you should ask that today smile

I just returned from doing a free tuning for the dealership I tune for. The sold a Story & Clark console piano... the very same one I discussed in a thread a while back where I tuned one piano in EBVT3, one in Moscow's EBPT, and one in 1/10 CM. If you remember, the jazz player loved the other 2, but disliked the 1/10 CM.

Well, the new owners said they purchased the S&C because of its rich, warm sound. It stood out. I explained the difference between ET and a very mild MT, and they decided they wanted to tune it today continuing with the 1/10 CM.

The piano does have a rich, warm sound. I have tuned quite a few S&C consoles, and I do not believe I have ever heard one sound nicer. Even the bass was warm, but it still had guts when you needed it.

I believe that the 1/10 CM absolutely did affect the resonance of the instrument.

I don't know if this will make any sense. The way I see it, if ET is refined white sugar, the 1/10CM is light brown sugar. It brings some new flavor, but not too much. Thank you so very much for telling me about the 1/10 CM smile

Tomorrow, I will suggest the 1/9 CM as an alternative to the customer we discussed before. I will also mention the 1/7 CM that Serkin likes. (You discussed it here with offsets http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1443771/)

Thanks again for you time and expertise smile
-Joe
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2040436 - 02/27/13 10:48 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Joe, I had a similar experience. Tuned a beautiful Yamaha at a dealers showroom in Toronto a few weeks back in ET and the customer who played it after bought it on the spot. Must have thought my temperament was organic Stevia....or maybe the full moon that night..
_________________________
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#2040445 - 02/27/13 11:06 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Emmery]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hi Emmery!

I'm sure your tuning helped seal the deal. I just thought it was interesting that this client appreciated the same things about this temperament that I did. It's very close to ET, but it does alter the resonance.

I don't want to presume, but maybe you might try tuning a piano you are familiar with in one-tenth CM just for laughs. I think you'll notice a difference in the character of the instrument... not just the slight changes in harmony.

The offsets I have, courtesy of Bill Bremmer, are:

A 0.00
A# 0.35
B -0.20
C 0.25
C# -0.30
D 0.15
D# 0.40
E -0.15
F 0.30
F# -0.25
G 0.20
G# -0.35

Edit: Notice the very slight differences from ET. No changes of even as much as one-half cent.

The VT's temperament octave is from A3 to A4.
M3s 13.3 to 14.3

In ET, M3s 13.7 - 13.7


Edited by daniokeeper (02/27/13 11:10 PM)
_________________________
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2040461 - 02/28/13 12:04 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Joe I have tuned some UT's in the past upon request....very rarely and not enough to devote precious time into verifying the original acoustic intent with all the meaningful tuning/musical intervals we use with ET. ET has a very linear arangement with beat rates which only require good anchor points to be established and then everything else fit in its place relative to it. Haphazard chart offsets referenced off of ET zeroed fundamentals produce haphazard this way and that way beat rates with everything else. If the piano has exactly the same characteristics of inharmonicity as the sample piano which had its offsets recorded (presuming that piano was tuned aurally), then the proper relationships of the temperaments intent can be replicated. Without this relationship (which does not exist in the real world) aural verification depends on following predicted beat rate references for ALL useable intervals. It also requires some explanation as to where priorities should be/adjustments made, if things do not perfectly work out. This happens with ET so I won't pretend it doesn't with UT's.

This aural verification is glaringly missing from UT's or too unstructured for someone to reasonably carry around in their head.

Unfortunately the spicier intervals of UT's also fall outside of the 10-12 bps range where we percieve souring....souring cannot be verified accurately by ear either.

I suppose with wolf notes an arguement can be made that there is no clean end on a dogs turd to pick it up by so I won't elaborate on that issue. A nicely tuned ET on a piano which is heavily played will turn into UT on its own with a little time, so why charge someone money to give them something other people pay money to get cleaned up? N'est–ce pas?


Edited by Emmery (02/28/13 12:08 AM)
_________________________
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#2040478 - 02/28/13 12:41 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Emmery,

With advanced, multi-partial devices like the Verituner, the tempering is done in ET. Then, the offsets are applied.

If you re-examine the offsets, you will notice that there is an order to them when using the modified meantone temperaments. (Note the width of the 5ths using offsets in both the 1/9 CM and 1/10 CM) The custom calculation in ET for each individual piano, and then the same percentage of offset, or cents, should give repeatable results.

My observation of the 1/10 CM is that on the pianos I've used it on, the pianos sound warm and rich, but without sounding fat. Though I haven't' used it on that many pianos (yet), the results seem to be repeatable.

Again, my particular interest in UTs is to affect the character of the piano by using UTs that vary only minutely from ET, rather than dealing with correct harmony for specific pieces, composers, and eras.

Edit: Though I do want avoid selecting temperaments that are simply wrong for the type of music being played.

Edit: Though it does appear the by suggesting these various modified meantone temperaments, Bill has hit the nail squarely on the head. These various meantone temperaments seem to be quite flexible as to the types of music they are appropriate for. These, combined with others like the EBVT3, Neidhardt, Moscow EBPT, and several others are welcome additions to ET. I am glad to be able to offer them to my customers.

-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (02/28/13 02:01 AM)
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#2040614 - 02/28/13 08:12 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1092
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Quote:
[color:#3333FF]
Well, the new owners said they purchased the S&C because of its rich, warm sound. It stood out. I explained the difference between ET and a very mild MT, and they decided they wanted to tune it today continuing with the 1/10 CM.


Greetings,
I know of one store owner in a distant city, that has found the WT consoles or spinets will usually be the first one to sell from the long line on the floor. If he has a slow mover, he has it tuned in a WT and it is usually gone within a week or so. I had thought about writing it off to the universally sensed superiority of WT, but I think it is just a fluke, every time it happens.
However, ET's don't turn into the kind of WT that a tuner will create, they just continue getting farther from in tune from the moment the tuner leaves. Random frequencies do not a well-temperament make.

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#2040701 - 02/28/13 10:42 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Joe,

There may well be a reason why the 1/10 CMT sounds "better" to you and is not your imagination. A few years ago, Jason Kanter discovered an element which he called "Beat Synchrony". It is the ratio of beating between the M3 and m3 of any Major triad.

In strict ET (regardless of stretch), that ratio is an odd amount, 1:7 for all Major triads. It is as if every chord played were fighting itself. In contrast, the 1/7 CMT has a perfect 2:1 ratio for each. A look at any of the Well Temperaments reveals more favorable and even ratios.

Although most of the Quasi-Equal Temperaments (QET) were a result of flawed logic when attempting true ET, many of them just sound better. This is the case with my own ET via Marpurg where all of the M3's sound identical to ET but the 4ths & 5ths are equal beating. It ends up being a cleaner, more harmonious sounding arrangement than true ET.

I'll be hosting a Master Class in tuning that temperament by ear at the upcoming PTG convention. The participants will actually tune the piano, not me. I'll also be giving a preview of it where I tune the piano and talk about how to do it electronically.

I had asked Jason Kanter for the Beat Synchrony data for the 1/9 and 1/10 CMT's specifically to see how it is affected. Hopefully we'll find out about that sometime soon.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2040752 - 02/28/13 12:44 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1618
Loc: Chicagoland
Have a listen:

https://www.box.com/s/af88f16f9cea23c42e9c

major thirds range from 9.5 to 16.8 cents from a pure third. Remember that an ET third is 13.7 cents wide...

enjoy!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2040756 - 02/28/13 12:51 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1618
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Joe,

There may well be a reason why the 1/10 CMT sounds "better" to you and is not your imagination. A few years ago, Jason Kanter discovered an element which he called "Beat Synchrony". It is the ratio of beating between the M3 and m3 of any Major triad.

In strict ET (regardless of stretch), that ratio is an odd amount, 1:7 for all Major triads. It is as if every chord played were fighting itself. In contrast, the 1/7 CMT has a perfect 2:1 ratio for each. A look at any of the Well Temperaments reveals more favorable and even ratios.

Although most of the Quasi-Equal Temperaments (QET) were a result of flawed logic when attempting true ET, many of them just sound better. This is the case with my own ET via Marpurg where all of the M3's sound identical to ET but the 4ths & 5ths are equal beating. It ends up being a cleaner, more harmonious sounding arrangement than true ET.


Just a correction, "Beat Synchrony" was the term Robert Wendell came up with during email discussions with me and also Paul Bailey as we were using spreadsheets to create and analyze temperaments. I believe I was the first to point out and guess about the phenomenon of beat interactions between the M3/m3 in a triad... It's there in the pianotech archives somewhere! Jason got into it a bit later, if my memory is correct.
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2040766 - 02/28/13 01:06 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Ed Foote]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote

...However, ET's don't turn into the kind of WT that a tuner will create, they just continue getting farther from in tune from the moment the tuner leaves. Random frequencies do not a well-temperament make.


You are correct in a direct comparative analysis..but from the ears of an average joe client, my experiences have shown the opposite to be true. I had in fact been called to follow up on several UT tunings in which the customer was duped into thinking was ET...it was done by intentional substitution/promotion of the UT by a tech and intentional ommision of informing the client. In both cases the customers first question to me sitting down at the piano was...."does this sound out of tune or properly tuned to you"? I had talked with the tech in question and he told me that he attended a lecture where it was suggested to the students to simply substitute the UT for ET to help promote it. I told this tech that what he is doing is simply a gamble as far as the public is concerned and a direct shot in his own foot as far as other techs are concerned. If I am asked to assess a tuning in UT and I am not aware of it being UT...it will get the TWO BIG THUMBS DOWN and every colleague I know around these parts will likely do the same.

(Added) When marketing a new product/service on anything other than open disclosure of its merits (ie, blind substitution) and at the same charging money for something that it is entirely reasonable to assume is different from the norm....it is borderline unethical. it is a big red flag waving that this cannot sell itself on its own merits. Couple this with the fact that there are several notable high end techs who can be quoted off the internet to a customer as mentioning "ET is the hardest temperament to tune". Hard to argue that the tech didn't take a short cut with his services of a UT in this light.


Edited by Emmery (02/28/13 01:22 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2040794 - 02/28/13 01:54 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Emmery you have repeatedly attacked the working practices of some people who tune UTs when discussing the UTs themselves. And although there can be no disputing what you claim, and I don't support the practice you are describing, it does not belong in this kind of thread, which is for discussing the temperaments.

The thread title is not "Which UT shall I tune for a jazz musician without telling him?"
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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