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#2061647 - 04/09/13 01:34 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Joe,

Thanks! smile I used the Verituner Ipad with Bill's EBVT III tuning specifically for my BB.

I think what you are hearing has to do with several factors that all come together beautifully. The hammers and bass strings, Bill's special tuning, and of course the piano itself, with the Wapin bridge mod......it is one great sounding M&H BB.

Bill's tuning, more than any other one I have had on there, does something with the bass that just makes it sound so rich and full....Bill could explain it better how it reinforces the rest of the scale. It sounds like I have a larger piano than just 7ft...in person it is remarkable. smile Thanks for the kudo's...I just try and do the best my musical ears can do. smile

Yes, somewhere in that huge EBVT thread, you will find them...:)

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#2062178 - 04/09/13 10:52 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Here are a few more Jazz pieces I recorded today....different mics, Rode NT5 Omins. Enjoy!


Rode NT5 Omini mics EBVT III

1. Jazz--Bach to Brooklyn Played by M. Garson EBVT III https://www.box.com/s/fy9h5yj8q3tkyxideyvq

2. Jazz--M.Garson 1 https://www.box.com/s/5lt9xskkgwvi3whxkysd

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#2062868 - 04/11/13 11:42 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
The opening post spoke of hardcore jazz. Thanks, grandpianoman for these two, particularly the one that goes into " I should care".. It contains some of the extended chords in extreme inversions. Jazz pianists I like to hear know how to graduate the tension in these kinds of chords. I don't hear the graduated tension but that may be the temperament or the pianist. These are rolls are they not? If they were made on an instrument in ET, that may be the reason. It would be nice to hear a comparison with the same roll played in ET. There seems to be some of the tension missing from the chords. Hard for me to tell why.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2062872 - 04/11/13 11:47 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
The opening post spoke of hardcore jazz. Thanks, grandpianoman for these two, particularly the one that goes into " I should care".. It contains some of the extended chords in extreme inversions. Jazz pianists I like to hear know how to graduate the tension in these kinds of chords. I don't hear the graduated tension but that may be the temperament or the pianist. These are rolls are they not? If they were made on an instrument in ET, that may be the reason. It would be nice to hear a comparison with the same roll played in ET. There seems to be some of the tension missing from the chords. Hard for me to tell why.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2063028 - 04/11/13 04:59 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: rxd]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi rxd....you're welcome. Last night I recorded a few more from Garson. Will post those later today. These are not piano rolls. They are played on the LX system. I suspect they were made on a piano in ET.

You mentioned the pianists interpretation.....def different if he had recorded it live on my piano. Playing a recorded piece on a player piano or the LX/Disklavier, one hears what the pianist did on the recording piano, not my piano. Different accoustics, temperatment/tuning, piano action etc are not going to be exactly the same. If he had recorded it on my piano, he would probably play it slightly different. I remember Bill pointing this out eary in the EBVT III thread. It could also be the temperament.


Edited by Grandpianoman (04/11/13 05:26 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#2063775 - 04/12/13 11:17 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Rxd, here is another Garson Jazz piece...the tuning went a bit sour, never the less, here it is. Also, I converted it to the .flac format instead of .mp3...it's a bigger file, but to my ear it sounds better. The box.net will play it, just give it time decode it. I also changed to the highest quality on my software when converting it from .wav to .flac.

ps...lol...about mid way through, my dog decides to do the dog shake...:)

M.Garson 3-Rode NT5 Ominis https://www.box.com/s/445ql3xqyl0r4r78t5dm


Edited by Grandpianoman (04/12/13 11:19 PM)

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#2064805 - 04/15/13 06:22 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Sorry, grandpianoman, there something different enough with this link that it won't download on my iPhone. I'll have to wait til I'm at my big computer. Getting me to sit behind a desk these days may take a while.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2064840 - 04/15/13 08:03 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7260
Loc: France
There are different ways to raise the consonance, all with advantages and inconvenience.


Edited by Olek (04/15/13 08:06 AM)
_________________________
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#2064870 - 04/15/13 09:11 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Just to avoid confusion, my point is about the carefully graded progressive dissonances that are the province of the jazz pianist. (the pianist on BDB's recent 'sample' is an exellent case in point. ET works well for his type of playing.

Any attempt at more 'consonance', by an overly helpful tuner, however achieved, could destroy the carefully heard and constructed degrees of dissonance which is the intent of the finer jazz pianists. It isn't consonance they are striving for, it is carefully differentiated degrees of dissonance (tension). Show tunes in their original harmony don't begin to demonstrate this as a test of a suitable temperament for "hardcore" jazz as was stated in the presenting post. First class Jazz pianists these days are more and more particular about the pianos they play and their tuning.

I have thought of conducting an experiment involving the jazz profs and students at my conservatory but I think twice about disturbing the carefully built up stability of the pianos in their department and there isn't a piano I can set aside for a suitable length of time.


Edited by rxd (04/15/13 12:59 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2064889 - 04/15/13 09:46 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7260
Loc: France
It is a little surprising to hear harmony progressions sounding a little "straight or "flat" in the sence less contrast , while more was expected.

But I believe that this part of the listening is due to a too big enlarging to get to pure intervals and consonance points . Global motion is fighted by the even beating process, but harmonically I would expect more congruence.

The tone, in itself, is clean and calm, nice to listen, but harmonic construction is a little disturbing "loss of meaning, that last being related to our listening habits as well" ,under some circumstances.


Edited by Olek (04/15/13 09:48 AM)

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#2065006 - 04/15/13 02:01 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Rxd, I think Apple does not want to use .flac files, they want to lead us towards their own conversions. I could not get the .flac file to play on my Ipad/Iphone either. In any case, here it is as an .mp3

M.Garson 3 Rode NT5 Omni Mic Capsules.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/rzzbkvfxoz7kw4tl3vy6

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#2072493 - 04/27/13 10:51 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi folks,

here comes a bold suggestion for laying down "the ultimate UT" for jazz smile Bill's very nice EBVT III (which I use and feature in our concert hall at the conservatory) could possibly be transposed so that the "sunfeather" of thirds have its smallest gaps (= least distance between lower and upper note) for the key B flat.

I have tried this only once, but inspired by this thread, I have to try it for the next jazz gig i tune for and/or play myself. The "ground base" of the circle of fifths in jazz would be B flat rather than C, due to the dominance of B flat instruments in the music.

As for Bill's EBVT III, the special character stems at least to 50% percent from the initial stretch outside the temperament (at least as I experience it). To me, it's more of a 2 1/2 octave (C2-F4) temperament. When you've gotten that area down, you can start stretching with balancing 12th/15ths, and get a really nice resonance out of the piano.

This is only my opinion, as always, but if you just get on my back a bit I will soon, at a convenient time, post an EBVT III tuning stemming from Bb, in a jazz context.
Would anybody be interesting in hearing something like that?


Edited by pppat (04/28/13 06:14 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2072808 - 04/28/13 01:03 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Patrick,

What were the results the last time you tried it? What was the reaction of the other musicians?

If relying on the Verituner for the initial temperament, would you simply shift all the offsets down one whole tone?

Edit: I wonder if this could have relevance to other well temperaments as well as EBVT3.

Thanks,
-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (04/28/13 01:05 PM)
_________________________
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Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2073001 - 04/28/13 06:09 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi Joe,

I only tried it once, but I really liked it when I played the piano after the tuning. As for the musicians, they liked both the tuning and the sound of the piano. It was a club gig, though, so I guess the stress factor was kind of low.

This was a couple of years ago, but I've kept it in the back of my mind ever since to try it again sometime. The idea is a sound one to me, setting Bb as the calmest key, and E as the most "spicy" one.

I might consider tuning the jazz festival in my town (in September) using this temperament.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2073119 - 04/28/13 08:55 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: pppat]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: pppat
Would anybody be interesting in hearing something like that?


Hello!?!?!! I should think so !
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2073228 - 04/29/13 12:04 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hey Patrick,

Your idea does make a lot of sense. I also, like Andy, would love to hear the result... if it's not too much work.

As for transposing the offsets, that might require a little more math than I first thought...

If the offset for B is transposed down to A, then A will be at -0.16 cents. So, 0.16 should probably be added to all the offsets so that A will equal 440 again. This should be a trivial amount of change in overall tension, so it would be safe with EBVT3.

Of course, if 0.16 is not added, there should still be a virtually beatless unison between A on the other instruments and A on the piano anyhow.

Or, would it make more sense, since we are moving the offset at C to B-flat, to subtract 3.31 cents from all the transposed offsets, if the other instruments are B-flat instruments?

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2073495 - 04/29/13 01:58 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Joe, if you have temperament offsets which list A as anything but zero, all you have to do is reverse whatever the sign is and enter that offset in your ETD to move everything so that the A ends up at 440.

Thanks Patrick for your comments. You will recall how we discussed that Dvorak must have composed the "Going Home" melody on a well-tempered piano in the key of C. However, since the melody was to be played by winds which intone better in the flat keys, he simply transposed it all to the key of D-flat.

It is certainly possible to do this with the EBVT III for a piano that will play with a Jazz band or orchestra. The Vallotti Well temperament actually has its tonal center on F rather than C but it is often used by universities for Harpsichord and Fortepiano tuning.

I am not sure what to say about the pitch if you make B-flat the tonal center rather than C. If you do, the offset for A# (B-flat) would be +0.67. If anything, I would suggest tuning with the offset at -0.67 which would, in turn, reduce the +3.11 that A would have to +2.44. The thinking is that these instruments (except for the String Bass) may tune to a zero B-flat rather than a zero A. What say you, Pat?

I might also be inclined to split that +2.44 in half to +1.22 and tune the piano with a -1.22 offset. At that point, the amount "off" that the piano's A4 is would be insignificant. I personally believe that even at +3.11 it is still within the bounds of what musicians would perceive as A-440. That would leave the B-flat at: -0.55

Here are the offsets for the EBVT III with the tonal center shifted to B-flat:

C: +2.86
C#:-0.03
D: +3.80
D#:-1.29
E: +0.86
F: +1.59
F#:-0.41
G: +1.84
G#:-0.28
A: +3.11
A#:+0.67
B: 0.0

Don't forget that inharmonicity skews all these figures just a bit in the midrange. Also, consider that even in ET, the 4th partials of notes in the midrange tuned at A-440 are approximately at A-442! That also means that the fundamental pitches of notes in the 6th octave on a piano tuned in ET at A-440 are also approximately at A-442 pitch.

The conclusion may well be that you can't really tune a piano and that exact pitch doesn't matter that much even if you try!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2073710 - 04/29/13 06:44 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hi Bill and all others,

when i tuned the EBbVT III :), I started with a G fork instead of an A fork (Hey, I didn't even own an ETD at the time smile ) As the forks give the theoretical frequency based on the 12^2, I would assume that G would have an offset of 0.0 in this tuning. What is nice though, is that so would A.

I did this all by ear, starting with G4 and then going through the sequence just as I would normally. In the tuning, all the 6 BPS's fell naturally in place as 5 BPS's.

Based on this experience, I think i'd just transfer all the offsets down a whole step for the ETD tuning. If the original EBVT III is:

C + 3.8
C# - 1.3
D + 0.9
D# + 1.6
E - 0.4
F + 1.8
F# - 0.3
G + 3.1
G# + 0.7
A 0.0
A# + 2.9
B 0.0

...This "EBbVT" would have the following offsets:

A# + 3.8
B - 1.3
C + 0.9
C# + 1.6
D - 0.4
D# + 1.8
E - 0.3
F + 3.1
F# + 0.7
G 0.0
G# + 2.9
A 0.0


Anyways, the kind of adjustments Bill proposes would also work well. Just as he says, A=440 is only kind of a reference, a pitch that the piano centers itself around. Given inharmonicity, stretch and possible custom tweaks (speeding the thirds up just outside the temperament range, aso), the A=440 has to be taken with a grain of salt.


Edited by pppat (04/29/13 06:46 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2073734 - 04/29/13 07:20 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Thanks Bill and Patrick,

I understand. smile

But, if EBVT3 in its original form is centered around F, then maybe everything could be shifted down a 5th?

That would make B-flat at +1.49, and A would be -0.48. The offset for A would be trivial.

A real perfectionist could add 0.48 to all the offsets. Or, subtract 1.49 from all the offsets.

Thanks again!
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2074493 - 04/30/13 08:20 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Thanks Bill and Patrick,

I understand. smile

But, if EBVT3 in its original form is centered around F, then maybe everything could be shifted down a 5th?

That would make B-flat at +1.49, and A would be -0.48. The offset for A would be trivial.

A real perfectionist could add 0.48 to all the offsets. Or, subtract 1.49 from all the offsets.

Thanks again!
-Joe


Hi Joe,

I like to look upon the C as the "home base" of EBVT III, since it has the calmest major triad. Then the rest of the triads stemming from the cycle of 5ths build that nice "sunfeather" shape I use to write about.

I don't know if you've seen the graph at rollingball.com, but here it is in any case:



It is this base that I shifted down in the Bb version I tried.


Edited by pppat (05/01/13 05:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#2074574 - 04/30/13 10:59 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
No Patrick, I did not look at the graph at rollingball.com... and I absolutely should have before posting. Sorry about that smile

I was just following what Bill Bremmer said in his post:
It is certainly possible to do this with the EBVT III for a piano that will play with a Jazz band or orchestra. The Vallotti Well temperament actually has its tonal center on F rather than C but it is often used by universities for Harpsichord and Fortepiano tuning.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2075070 - 05/01/13 02:52 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
The EBVT III is a true Well Temperament with the tonal center on C, not F. One could tune it from a C Fork by tuning the first interval as a C4-F3 pure 5th. The only technical "blemish" in the EBVT III is that there is what Owen Jorgensen describes as a "micro-imbalance": the A-C# M3 is a tiny bit less wide than the D-F# M3. Werkmeister's rules state that A-C# can be the same width or wider as D-F# but not less wide. However, since the infraction is so small, Jorgensen thought it to be insignificant.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2075111 - 05/01/13 04:13 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
I see my error...

The Valotti Well has its center on F, not EBVT.


Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2082177 - 05/13/13 11:13 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Actually, that is not true. It is just what I saw someone write one time and was dumb enough to believe it. The harmony is virtually the same for C, F and G Major. Most WT's have C Major as the calmest but Valotti's has them as the same. It is still within the bounds of Werkmeister's rules.

Anyway, here is the reason I logged in tonight. The pod cast of the tuning I did on March 9 for a Jazz concert the next day is, at last, available. Enjoy!

http://www.madtoastlive.com/latest/2013/3/10/episode-280-johannes-wallman.html


Edited by Bill Bremmer RPT (05/14/13 08:10 PM)
Edit Reason: substituted a permenant link
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2082515 - 05/14/13 03:42 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 526
Loc: Seattle
I would think that for Jazz one would want to focus on centering the pitch level at A# (Bb for you enharmonically conversant types) rather than A, at least so far as the relational tuning of brass and wind instruments are concerned.
_________________________
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#2082548 - 05/14/13 04:34 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: SMHaley]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
I would think that for Jazz one would want to focus on centering the pitch level at A# (Bb for you enharmonically conversant types) rather than A, at least so far as the relational tuning of brass and wind instruments are concerned.

A# and B flat are entirely different notes (just ask an oboist). You would need to set the temperament using B flat as the basis of the intervals.

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#2082794 - 05/14/13 11:11 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
I haven't had time to watch the whole thing. But what I heard, I liked smile

They don't show nearly enough close shots of the pianist. But in the ones they show, he seems completely engaged. The other musicians seem perfectly happy and not distracted.

And the crowd is loving it.

Obviously, a big thumbs up for EBVT3 smile

Congratulations!

-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2082799 - 05/14/13 11:23 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
[...] Obviously, a big thumbs up for EBVT3 smile


Yup! Sounds good! Really good! thumb

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2083056 - 05/15/13 11:40 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Mwm]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 526
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
I would think that for Jazz one would want to focus on centering the pitch level at A# (Bb for you enharmonically conversant types) rather than A, at least so far as the relational tuning of brass and wind instruments are concerned.

A# and B flat are entirely different notes (just ask an oboist). You would need to set the temperament using B flat as the basis of the intervals.


Quite true, especially where alternate temperments are concerned! As one in the pipe organ field there are no such things as flats unless we are discussing instruments (often in mean-tone) with sub semi-tone keys.
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#2083089 - 05/15/13 01:06 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: SMHaley]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
I would think that for Jazz one would want to focus on centering the pitch level at A# (Bb for you enharmonically conversant types) rather than A, at least so far as the relational tuning of brass and wind instruments are concerned.

A# and B flat are entirely different notes (just ask an oboist). You would need to set the temperament using B flat as the basis of the intervals.


Quite true, especially where alternate temperments are concerned! As one in the pipe organ field there are no such things as flats unless we are discussing instruments (often in mean-tone) with sub semi-tone keys.

I was pulling your chain a bit.

I have a friend who recently performed a Charpentier mass that moved from five flats through to four sharps. The research indicated that Charpentier likely used two manuals for the work, one for the flat keys and one for the sharp keys. In a modern context she had only one manual and they were forced to choose a meantone variant with the keyboard shifted to A - 392Hz, which meant she lost the bottom C.

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