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#2040026 - 02/27/13 08:30 AM I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial.
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Somebody stop me...Aaagghhh! I can't help it, but I have GAS... guitar acquisition syndrome... er wait a minute, what is it you guys call it here? PAS?

I can't stop it, I'm addicted. After getting Alicia's Keys not long ago, I was floored by the sound, but then I'm like wait a minute I need a good Steinway so right now as we speak I'm playing this gorgeous American D. Then I thought, I really need a fine sounding Boesendorfer, so I threw down the cash and I am now patiently waiting for my activation code so I can start downloading this beast... Somebody stop me before I buy a real Steinway!


In all seriousness, I don't see too many real comparisons of the latest from Ivory II, the American D, and the Vienna Imperial, so I'm here to offer that service. I'd like to throw down some simple tone comparisons for you guys.

And about that half-pedaling, not an issue for me. I'm playing the American D without half-pedal on and I can hardly hear the difference, I know it's there, but hey, I don't play classical gas, and I've only been playing 8 months so.. you be the judge.

I'm so happy I was able to sell some crap around the house on Ebay lately, almost $700 worth of crap. Isn't it amazing what people will buy nowadays?

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#2040101 - 02/27/13 11:41 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
GAS = gear acquisition syndrome ;-) so not limited to guitars

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#2040130 - 02/27/13 12:49 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Clayman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 300
Loc: Prague, Czech Rep.
Heh, nice. Looks like those 650 dollars you had saved by choosing Alicia's Keys was put to good use after all AND you also went for Vienna anyway. laugh

Enjoy, mate!


Edited by Clayman (02/27/13 12:50 PM)
_________________________
-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown

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#2040235 - 02/27/13 03:11 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Clayman]
RBMusik Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 42
Loc: Philadelphia
Not many folks here looking at XLN Audio's Addictive Keys. Their sampled Steinway and Yamaha U3 are excellent. I prefer the XLN Steinway to the Ivory II. The microphone adjustments make them extremely flexible. Also good choices to further the quest for a million pianos smile Free demo with reduced octave sampling... C1-C4 I believe.

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#2040243 - 02/27/13 03:24 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 808
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I just acquired Galaxy Vintage D myself after using Pianoteq 4 with the Bleuthner for a while. I like them both and find there are many subtle differences. In general I think Pianoteq is still more "playable" but prefer the the sound of Vintage.

I now want to replace my Clavinova with the Kawai VPC and get some audio gear to connect to it.

It is a sickness and we need help!
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2040247 - 02/27/13 03:29 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Vid]
scorpio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 498
Loc: Connecticut, USA
Originally Posted By: Vid

It is a sickness and we need help!



That's why I try to avoid these type of threads. I know it can be contagious.
_________________________

    Yamaha P-155

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    #2040268 - 02/27/13 04:04 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    wouter79 Offline
    3000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 3464
    >Somebody stop me before I buy a real Steinway!

    Real as in an acoustic Steinway? LOL I can recommend that.
    _________________________

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    #2040333 - 02/27/13 06:16 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    gvfarns Offline
    3000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 04/16/07
    Posts: 3483
    Loc: Pennsylvania
    Fun times. I love a good VST and VST comparisons/reviews. Basically I only play Vintage D but I do keep looking at American D wondering if maybe it's better. That grass is on the other side of the fence, after all.

    Definitely curious to see how you compare Vienna Imperial and American D after you have them a while.

    Enjoy the gear!

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    #2040350 - 02/27/13 06:58 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    After getting Alicia's Keys not long ago, I was floored by the sound, ...

    And about that half-pedaling, not an issue for me. I'm playing the American D without half-pedal on and I can hardly hear the difference ...


    It's not half pedaling that makes the biggest difference, it the repedalling. And you can't turn off repedalling on the American D.

    As for Alicia's Keys Yamaha C3. Can you hear how dead the C key one octave about middle C is? Its fundamental tone decays very fast and only the overtones remain. Play it without the sustain pedal and compare to the B key next to it. I can't play AK because of that. I prefer the Ivory II Yamaha C7, but I'm still looking for a better Yamaha.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2040366 - 02/27/13 07:56 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    SDaniel Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 02/21/13
    Posts: 21
    Loc: France
    Originally Posted By: Macy

    It's not half pedaling that makes the biggest difference, it the repedalling. And you can't turn off repedalling on the American D.



    Newbee question: Can somebody explain what repealing is? Thank you!

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    #2040384 - 02/27/13 09:03 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    After getting Alicia's Keys not long ago, I was floored by the sound, ...

    And about that half-pedaling, not an issue for me. I'm playing the American D without half-pedal on and I can hardly hear the difference ...


    It's not half pedaling that makes the biggest difference, it the repedalling. And you can't turn off repedalling on the American D.

    As for Alicia's Keys Yamaha C3. Can you hear how dead the C key one octave about middle C is? Its fundamental tone decays very fast and only the overtones remain. Play it without the sustain pedal and compare to the B key next to it. I can't play AK because of that. I prefer the Ivory II Yamaha C7, but I'm still looking for a better Yamaha.





    I hear what you're saying about repedaling, I didn't forget that, and thus why I have Ivory II American D, an incredible sounding piano. (everything sounds incredible to me right now). I can hear that going on in my Yamaha CL340 and Ivory. But there are some things right now here I prefer the tone and response of Alicia's Keys over the Ivory. Floyd Camer's "Last Date" is but one example where Alicia really shines over Ivory as well as his version of "Georgia on My Mind". Both tunes have a similar vibe that don't really need that repedaling so much as more full sustain.

    I'm currently working on "Schindler's List" and I'm not sure if I like Alicia or Ivory yet. Seems Schindler ought to be played on a classical sound like Ivory, but then I like Alicia too...

    Other tunes like "Blue Eyes Cryin in the Rain" really sound so much better on the Ivory, perhaps due to my constant pumping of the sustain pedal with the beat.


    About Alicia, It does seems to have this fullness in lower register that can overwhelm the player. But the higher end has this "pop" that I like. Playing it reminds me of an acoustic bass player and a saxaphone jamming together, that's the sound I hear, the low is full and round and the top really spits at you. So it's really my slow soulful choice. I had not notice that dead C but now I do...



    Edited by Fscotte (02/27/13 09:09 PM)

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    #2040395 - 02/27/13 09:24 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Interesting that you keep referring to the bottom end of AK. It's actually one of the things it has been criticized about since it a sampled 6'1" C3, rather than Ivory II's 7'6" C7. You should try to get to hear the difference. The Ivory II does have a lot more "string twang" however, that you may or may not like. But overall, it is far superior in just about every way to AK.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2040400 - 02/27/13 09:30 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Well to me it's not bigger than Ivory, it's muddier, that's what I meant by full. The low end actually sounds more like an acoustic bass to my ears at times. The Ivory is definitely more articulate in the low end and very woody, which is great.

    Ivory has one flaw to my ears and it is around G3 to D4 (I'm referring to middle C as C3). There's a range of notes in that span there that feel very cold. No pop, no wood, no punch. Perhaps that's how the real Steinway sounded I dunno. I hope it's an issue that can be fixed.

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    #2040403 - 02/27/13 09:34 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: SDaniel]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: SDaniel
    Originally Posted By: Macy

    It's not half pedaling that makes the biggest difference, it the repedalling. And you can't turn off repedalling on the American D.



    Newbee question: Can somebody explain what repealing is? Thank you!

    Repedalling is what happens naturally on an acoustic piano when you depress the damper pedal again as previous notes are still dying out after the damper pedal had been lifted. (Or as the damper pedal is pressed just after the keys are struck and they have already started to decay.) The sound of those notes at that point in their decay are then sustained because the dampers have been lifted off the strings again. This happens normally all the time as you play an acoustic piano and use the damper pedal, or purposely if you pedal just after playing chords for instance. So digital pianos without this ability don't sound correct. They lack the additional sustain resonance and fullness of an acoustic piano.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2040404 - 02/27/13 09:39 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Ivory has one flaw to my ears and it is around G3 to D4 (I'm referring to middle C as C3). There's a range of notes in that span there that feel very cold. No pop, no wood, no punch. Perhaps that's how the real Steinway sounded I dunno. I hope it's an issue that can be fixed.

    The American D sounds a little cold to my ears as well. That is one reason I like the Vintage D better. The Vintage D has a much larger range of timbre for non-classical music, and can be convincingly voiced over an even larger range, although I seldom find that necessary.


    Edited by Macy (02/27/13 09:39 PM)
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2040406 - 02/27/13 09:39 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Dave B Offline
    1000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 08/01/11
    Posts: 1912
    Loc: Philadelphia area
    Macy, If there is a C5 out there somewhere, you might like that better than the C7. The C5 has a full sound on a well balanced scaling that pops.

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    #2040528 - 02/28/13 03:15 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    PtJaa Online   content
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/14/12
    Posts: 176
    Loc: Czech Republic
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte

    About Alicia, It does seems to have this fullness in lower register that can overwhelm the player. But the higher end has this "pop" that I like. Playing it reminds me of an acoustic bass player and a saxaphone jamming together, that's the sound I hear, the low is full and round and the top really spits at you. So it's really my slow soulful choice. I had not notice that dead C but now I do...


    Fscotte, while you still have GAS, have you considered Galaxy GIANT?
    It's a great piano, with a powerful and disctinctly sounding bass and extraordinary dynamics. I play pop stuff too, and I often prefer it to my Galaxy Vintage D (for example, in Jarrod Radnich's arangement of Pirates it sounds really superb). It doesn't have such warm sound as my Vintage D, but it has other qualities to its sound that I learned to really appreciate over time. It has two advantages over other pianos that I find most important for me:

    - It has awesome expessivity, reacts to even small changes in the strength of strokes, in the whole range from pp to fff. I find it very important for improving my playing, because the better I hear what I do, the better I can improve.

    - It differs a lot from other (more standard) pianos. When I play a lot, my ears would get tired of the sound of the piano I use. The remedy is to switch to a different sound, as much different as possible.

    On the dead C in AK: In some pianos that run in Kontakt (certainly in Galaxy pianos), you can remap keys you don't like from neighbour keys or change many of their properties, if you have full Kontakt. It's even possible for someone, who has both that piano and Kontakt, to post modified .nki for other owners of that piano who don't have the full Kontakt. I don't have AK, so I don't know if it works in AK too.

    I have asked here a couple times if the same can be done with other pianos (Synthogy), but no one has ever answered.
    _________________________
    Kawai CA65 :: Galaxy: Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Giant :: Pianoteq 5 :: Kontakt 5 :: Reaper :: True Keys pianos

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    #2040540 - 02/28/13 04:50 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: RBMusik]
    jarosujo Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/12/12
    Posts: 237
    Loc: Slovakia
    Originally Posted By: RBMusik
    Not many folks here looking at XLN Audio's Addictive Keys. Their sampled Steinway and Yamaha U3 are excellent. I prefer the XLN Steinway to the Ivory II. The microphone adjustments make them extremely flexible. Also good choices to further the quest for a million pianos smile Free demo with reduced octave sampling... C1-C4 I believe.


    XLN Steinway looks nice, specially considering 50$ price tag. Strange it is never mentioned here. Going to check free demo today.
    _________________________
    Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
    Yamaha DGX640 (sold)
    Kawai CL-36
    Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2

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    #2040542 - 02/28/13 04:52 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: PtJaa]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: PtJaa
    [quote=Fscotte]
    On the dead C in AK: In some pianos that run in Kontakt (certainly in Galaxy pianos), you can remap keys you don't like from neighbour keys or change many of their properties, if you have full Kontakt. It's even possible for someone, who has both that piano and Kontakt, to post modified .nki for other owners of that piano who don't have the full Kontakt. I don't have AK, so I don't know if it works in AK too.

    I have asked here a couple times if the same can be done with other pianos (Synthogy), but no one has ever answered.

    There is no key remapping capability in the (Synthogy) Ivory II software.

    I have also asked if AK can be remapped in the full version of Kontakt (like the Galaxy pianos). I would buy the full Kontakt version if that worked. But I believe that the AK samples are locked and it can't be done. If anyone knows differently please respond.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2040557 - 02/28/13 06:01 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    PtJaa Online   content
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/14/12
    Posts: 176
    Loc: Czech Republic
    Macy, thanks for the information. I guess I'll stick with Galaxy (or Pianoteq)... smile
    _________________________
    Kawai CA65 :: Galaxy: Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Giant :: Pianoteq 5 :: Kontakt 5 :: Reaper :: True Keys pianos

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    #2040744 - 02/28/13 12:20 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: jarosujo]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Originally Posted By: jarosujo
    Originally Posted By: RBMusik
    Not many folks here looking at XLN Audio's Addictive Keys. Their sampled Steinway and Yamaha U3 are excellent. I prefer the XLN Steinway to the Ivory II. The microphone adjustments make them extremely flexible. Also good choices to further the quest for a million pianos smile Free demo with reduced octave sampling... C1-C4 I believe.


    XLN Steinway looks nice, specially considering 50$ price tag. Strange it is never mentioned here. Going to check free demo today.


    What did you think of it? Since it was free I thought I'd give it a try too. I do love the ability to change the sound, lotsa options there. My overall opinion was that it sounded a bit "plinky", especially in the higher register. I tried every preset with FX and they all had that similar sound. Not really my cup of tea, but I can see it as a good piano for $50.


    Edited by Fscotte (02/28/13 12:20 PM)

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    #2040843 - 02/28/13 03:15 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    SDaniel Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 02/21/13
    Posts: 21
    Loc: France
    Originally Posted By: Macy

    Repedalling is what happens naturally on an acoustic piano when you depress the damper pedal again as previous notes are still dying out after the damper pedal had been lifted. (Or as the damper pedal is pressed just after the keys are struck and they have already started to decay.) The sound of those notes at that point in their decay are then sustained because the dampers have been lifted off the strings again. This happens normally all the time as you play an acoustic piano and use the damper pedal, or purposely if you pedal just after playing chords for instance. So digital pianos without this ability don't sound correct. They lack the additional sustain resonance and fullness of an acoustic piano.




    Understood. Thank you Macy.


    Edited by SDaniel (02/28/13 03:17 PM)

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    #2041396 - 03/01/13 02:45 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    jarosujo Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/12/12
    Posts: 237
    Loc: Slovakia
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Originally Posted By: jarosujo
    Originally Posted By: RBMusik
    Not many folks here looking at XLN Audio's Addictive Keys. Their sampled Steinway and Yamaha U3 are excellent. I prefer the XLN Steinway to the Ivory II. The microphone adjustments make them extremely flexible. Also good choices to further the quest for a million pianos smile Free demo with reduced octave sampling... C1-C4 I believe.


    XLN Steinway looks nice, specially considering 50$ price tag. Strange it is never mentioned here. Going to check free demo today.


    What did you think of it? Since it was free I thought I'd give it a try too. I do love the ability to change the sound, lotsa options there. My overall opinion was that it sounded a bit "plinky", especially in the higher register. I tried every preset with FX and they all had that similar sound. Not really my cup of tea, but I can see it as a good piano for $50.


    Well, I have similar problem like with all other sampled libraries I tried - I feel kind of "disconnected" if it makes sense. Not sure if it's caused by lag (I can notice even 10 ms). I guess I will stick with my Kawai sound for now.
    _________________________
    Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
    Yamaha DGX640 (sold)
    Kawai CL-36
    Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2

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    #2041487 - 03/01/13 04:41 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Playing Vienna Imperial for the first time. And it does have re-pedaling, I hit a key, release it, and then hit the sustain pedal, and it continues to sustain what was left of the sound. I'm playing dry with no effects and it's giving me re-pedaling.

    First impression, very responsive - I'm playing with ease now and my fingers are dancing on the keyboard, this feels like playing a real piano. Nice pop and punch, great bass, the higher register is beautiful, I may prefer the Steinway lower register for it's wood... I'll have to experiment more, they're both excellent, just a different flavor. The soft pedal is to die for, and exactly what I need for some Cramer style picking. Perfecto! on the soft pedal.

    I would say overall it sounds more like Alicia's Keys than the Steinway. But they are worlds apart, I may not touch Alicia as much now. I think the Steinway is a killer for classical style stuff, and the Vienna excellent for pop and/or country style Cramer stuff, and Alicia may be nice for slow and soulful - but I can easily see the Vienna filling that spot too.

    Three great flavors to choose from.





    Edited by Fscotte (03/01/13 05:06 PM)

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    #2041546 - 03/01/13 06:23 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Playing Vienna Imperial for the first time. And it does have re-pedaling, I hit a key, release it, and then hit the sustain pedal, and it continues to sustain what was left of the sound. I'm playing dry with no effects and it's giving me re-pedaling.

    Thanks for the report. That is counter to what has been previously reported by other users. Perhaps it was added. I may have to get it and try it now.

    You are talking about the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Imperial piano that is priced at approximately $650+, and not the Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer Imperial piano that is priced at about $175, and not the Galaxy Vienna Grand Imperial 290 piano? Correct?


    Edited by Macy (03/01/13 07:12 PM)
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2041569 - 03/01/13 07:22 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Right this is the Vienna Imperial which takes up nearly 50gb of total space, 100 velocities, etcc..

    I was quite surprised myself to hear this feature since there is virtually no report about adding repedaling. It leaves me a bit confused because this seems to be the biggest complaint, except for the price, about the Vienna. One would think they would announce this. I guess it may not hurt to post over at the VSL forum and see what Paul has to say about it.

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    #2041600 - 03/01/13 08:48 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    gvfarns Offline
    3000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 04/16/07
    Posts: 3483
    Loc: Pennsylvania
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    this seems to be the biggest complaint, except for the price, about the Vienna.


    Partial pedal.

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    #2041626 - 03/01/13 10:35 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Playing Vienna Imperial for the first time. And it does have re-pedaling, I hit a key, release it, and then hit the sustain pedal, and it continues to sustain what was left of the sound. I'm playing dry with no effects and it's giving me re-pedaling.

    You have me intrigued enough to go buy and try it. But I want to be sure what it is really doing. Would you please try this experiment for me? Play a chord with the pedal down. Then release the pedal and then quickly press the pedal again. Does it catch the chord during its decay and sustain it from that point on?

    Also does it partial pedal. Can you depress the pedal half way and it sustains for a shorter period when playing a chord than if you depress the pedal all the way when playing the chord?

    Thanks so much if you will try those experiments. I hate to spend $700 (with the USB copy protection dongle) and then find out those features are missing.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2041630 - 03/01/13 11:00 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    dbudde Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/10/13
    Posts: 30
    Re: Vienna Imperial

    There is no partial pedal support.

    As for re-pedaling or whatever you want to call it...

    Vienna Imperial triggers a release sample whenever you release a key or let go of the pedal. Different release samples are triggered depending on the duration of the note or if the pedal was already depressed. But these release samples are just like any other samples. They get sustained if you press the sustain pedal before the sample decays. So what you asked about will happen as you expect it should.

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    #2041634 - 03/01/13 11:07 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    dbudde Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/10/13
    Posts: 30
    One more thing ...

    Vienna Imperial supports a parameter it calls 2sus. The 2sus Feature increases the realism of sustained notes that are pressed before the sustain pedal is activated. This option is switched off by default, as it halves the streaming performance and reduces effective polyphony to half its setting value.

    Vienna Imperial supports up to 384 voices and if you have a fast drive (e.g., SSD) then enabling this feature will not cause any performance problems.

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    #2041645 - 03/01/13 11:46 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: dbudde]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: dbudde
    Re: Vienna Imperial

    There is no partial pedal support.

    As for re-pedaling or whatever you want to call it...

    Vienna Imperial triggers a release sample whenever you release a key or let go of the pedal. Different release samples are triggered depending on the duration of the note or if the pedal was already depressed. But these release samples are just like any other samples. They get sustained if you press the sustain pedal before the sample decays. So what you asked about will happen as you expect it should.

    Thank you very much. If you are involved in the product design (just guessing) do you know why there is no partial pedal support?

    I'm going to try playing Ivory II American D and the Galaxy Vintage D with partial pedal turned off (repedalling still enabled) and see how much that affects playing them. If not too bad I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2041671 - 03/02/13 01:22 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    dbudde Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/10/13
    Posts: 30
    I have no affiliation with the company other than as a customer.

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    #2041844 - 03/02/13 12:33 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Originally Posted By: Macy

    You have me intrigued enough to go buy and try it. But I want to be sure what it is really doing. Would you please try this experiment for me? Play a chord with the pedal down. Then release the pedal and then quickly press the pedal again. Does it catch the chord during its decay and sustain it from that point on?




    Yes it does exactly that. In fact you can quickly pump the sustain pedal and it keeps the sustain alive as long as it can before it diminishes. The instrument is very alive and I am having trouble keeping it from being too resonant, but that's likely due to my heavy handed approach, not used to playing a responsive instrument.

    There is no partial pedal as alluded to.

    I'm still making comparisons with the American D as far as overall tone. They each are equal, where one gives, the other takes. A combination of the two would be perfect. I think they are both worth $400.

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    #2041934 - 03/02/13 04:37 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte

    Yes it does exactly that. In fact you can quickly pump the sustain pedal and it keeps the sustain alive as long as it can before it diminishes. The instrument is very alive and I am having trouble keeping it from being too resonant, but that's likely due to my heavy handed approach, not used to playing a responsive instrument.

    There is no partial pedal as alluded to.

    I'm still making comparisons with the American D as far as overall tone. They each are equal, where one gives, the other takes. A combination of the two would be perfect. I think they are both worth $400.

    Thanks for confirming.

    What does your last sentence mean? The American D is about $180 and the Vienna Imperial is about $700 with the Vienna USB protection dongle. If they are equals (in your opinion), why would the Imperial be worth more than $180? And the Vintage D is better than the American D in my opinion, and it is about $135.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2042006 - 03/02/13 07:06 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    dbudde Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/10/13
    Posts: 30
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    ...I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).


    I can't imagine why you'd buy this if you don't like the sound of a Bosendofer.

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    #2042007 - 03/02/13 07:09 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    It's my way of trying to convey their equality by worth, which is irrelevant to their cost. $400 is a compromise, it brings the American D up in value, because I think it deserves it, and brings the Vienna down a notch because if you compare features, the American D is better with all the presets and way to shape the tone.

    One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.

    I can't comment on the Vintage D but the Vienna is definitely brighter than the American D.

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    #2042011 - 03/02/13 07:25 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: dbudde]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: dbudde
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    ...I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).


    I can't imagine why you'd buy this if you don't like the sound of a Bosendofer.

    Yeah, you're right. I'll probably hold-off until one morning I wake up and realize I haven't had a new piano VST to explore for a while and just have to have somethig new to play with. What I really want is another Yamaha. I'm not entirely satisfied with the sound of the Ivory II C7, which is the best I've found so far.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2042012 - 03/02/13 07:31 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.


    I don't know of any MIDI problem like you describe with Yamaha keyboards and I use the CVP-409GP for my software pianos. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many keyboards, the Yamaha's included, don't put out MIDI values above about 115-120 (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly the limit on mine at this moment). But that is easy to "fix" by changing the velocity curve.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2042223 - 03/03/13 08:29 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    mitzysman Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 10/27/10
    Posts: 283
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    .

    You are talking about the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Imperial piano that is priced at approximately $650+, and not the Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer Imperial piano that is priced at about $175, and not the Galaxy Vienna Grand Imperial 290 piano? Correct?


    I glad you said this - I thought they were the same VSL library - i thought maybe since it's been a while the price dropped from 650 to under 200. I wonder what the main difference is between them.

    While I wasn't a fan of the Bosendorfer samples at first after playing Galaxy Vienna... it really grew on me (after tweaking). Of course I doubt I would ever find a real Bose i could afford - 100k just for a 6' model - wow - but I'm digging the sound now. The VSL Vienna sounds tempting, but I could buy 2 full suites for 650
    _________________________
    Yamaha P-250 | Galaxy II Pianos | Galaxy Vintage D | The GIANT

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    #2042416 - 03/03/13 04:29 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.


    I don't know of any MIDI problem like you describe with Yamaha keyboards and I use the CVP-409GP for my software pianos. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many keyboards, the Yamaha's included, don't put out MIDI values above about 115-120 (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly the limit on mine at this moment). But that is easy to "fix" by changing the velocity curve.



    Well I thought it was just my keyboard but it turns out Vienna is quite unbalanced in terms of individual notes. I found that there was a variance of 10dB between various notes or sets of notes. As a comparison, American D was within 2dB throughout the entire range of notes.

    But it wasn't just my hearing that was telling me this, but I was able to check this since I have nearfield monitors that display the level of incoming signals.

    -Set the VST to mono.

    -Set the Yamaha key sensitivity level to OFF, that makes the velocity the same no matter how hard or soft you hit the key.

    -Check decibel reading on nearfield monitors.

    If you have a way of measuring the output of the signal you can check this as well.

    One may argue that a real piano has variations in volume, and that may be true with the lower register usually being of higher dB, but this was not the case with Vienna. You may have one note at say -37dB then the next note at -40dB, then the next note at -36dB. Quite odd I must say being that they seemingly took this directly from that electronics geared Bosey.

    Again, the American D was absolutely rock solid in decibels from lowest to highest note. At my particular volume, the range was -43dB to -45dB.

    Fortunately the level variations can be edited for each individual key with the Key Editor.


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    #2042579 - 03/03/13 09:41 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: mitzysman]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: mitzysman
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    .

    You are talking about the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Imperial piano that is priced at approximately $650+, and not the Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer Imperial piano that is priced at about $175, and not the Galaxy Vienna Grand Imperial 290 piano? Correct?


    I glad you said this - I thought they were the same VSL library - i thought maybe since it's been a while the price dropped from 650 to under 200. I wonder what the main difference is between them.

    From what I read (I don't have either) the less expensive Bösendorfer Imperial is an older sample set released in 2006 that contains 9350 samples (55 GB uncompressed) while the newer Vienna Imperial has about 70,000 samples is about 500 GB uncompressed.
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2042626 - 03/04/13 12:14 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte

    Well I thought it was just my keyboard but it turns out Vienna is quite unbalanced in terms of individual notes. I found that there was a variance of 10dB between various notes or sets of notes. As a comparison, American D was within 2dB throughout the entire range of notes.

    But it wasn't just my hearing that was telling me this, but I was able to check this since I have nearfield monitors that display the level of incoming signals.

    -Set the VST to mono.

    -Set the Yamaha key sensitivity level to OFF, that makes the velocity the same no matter how hard or soft you hit the key.

    -Check decibel reading on nearfield monitors.

    If you have a way of measuring the output of the signal you can check this as well.

    One may argue that a real piano has variations in volume, and that may be true with the lower register usually being of higher dB, but this was not the case with Vienna. You may have one note at say -37dB then the next note at -40dB, then the next note at -36dB. Quite odd I must say being that they seemingly took this directly from that electronics geared Bosey.

    Again, the American D was absolutely rock solid in decibels from lowest to highest note. At my particular volume, the range was -43dB to -45dB.

    Fortunately the level variations can be edited for each individual key with the Key Editor.



    If you can hear the inconsistency between notes then it is an issue worth correcting. But I wouldn't get too hung up on the absolute dB values your monitor meters report. Your ear is a better final measure for actual notes. The meters are probably peak levels and peak levels can be very misleading because the waveforms of the various notes have very different attack, duration, decay, etc., including notes that are close to one another, or the same note at different velocities (that is why timbre varies with velocity). Even if your meter reads RMS values, those values are still difficult to compare because picking a different duration for the RMS period will give vastly different values from note to note (again because of attack, decay, etc. differences - these aren't sinewaves).

    Another issue is that even though you measured each note at the same velocity, you might get very different results measuring each note at another velocity. That is because the audio output of any particular key may not be monotonic and its output curve shape may be quite different than other keys. So the output variations between keys at any specific velocity is not the same.

    As an example, here is a graph that shows the audio RMS values (measured directly from the digital audio output) for the MIDI key #76 (E4) vs key velocity from 1 to 127. You will notice that the output is not monotonic, and there is a jump of about 5 dB at one point between adjacent velocity levels. The keys immediately surrounding it have much different response curves, so the output difference between keys varies with velocity level.





    Also on the same graph (the open squares) show the audio output of all keys from MIDI 21 to 108 (the 88 key range of a standard piano) at ONE particular velocity. In this case at velocity 56. You can see a huge variation (about 15 dB) in the audio output levels across all the keys, and even differences as much as 8 dB between adjacent keys. And remember this is at ONE velocity. Choosing another velocity will produce different variations.

    (Ignore the small graph in bottom right corner, which is used to show raw vs calibrated output because I grabbed this from an partially calibrated piano file.)

    I won't identify which particular software piano this graph was taken from because then I would probably have to respond to comparison questions about all the software pianos I own, and this graph is only one piano at one key vs velocity, and one velocity vs all keys. i.e. it barely scratches the surface of evaluating the one piano.


    Edited by Macy (03/04/13 12:26 AM)
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2042774 - 03/04/13 10:05 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Fscotte Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/23/13
    Posts: 35
    Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

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    #2042915 - 03/04/13 03:29 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
    Macy Online   content
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/09/10
    Posts: 605
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

    Because it was produced very well?
    _________________________
    Macy

    CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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    #2046366 - 03/11/13 07:12 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
    johnlewisgrant Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 11/17/07
    Posts: 471
    Loc: canada
    Originally Posted By: Macy
    Originally Posted By: Fscotte
    Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

    Because it was produced very well?


    Just purchased it to make solo jazz/classical rcordings, not for live performance.

    I own many samples, including Vintage D, Garritan Steinway, PMI Bos and Old Lady, Black Grand, EWQL's collection.

    The American Grand is--for the purposes I mentioned--without any competition. It's the only Steinway sample currently on the market that can be A/Bed against any modern high-end solo piano recording and "pass the test."

    The others, including the nice-sounding Vintage D, don't pass that test. Good ears can spot the sample every time.

    Good ears can't spot the American. That's a first.

    Sure, the midi file has to be good. For example, the classical demos up at Ivory don't do the American justice: clearly pure quantized midi, and not so pretty.

    But give this sampled piano something to work with and it can't be distinguished from a live recording--in fact, it can't be distinguished from a well-recorded live recording.

    This is a "first ever" and a game changer for recorded piano. Until now, you still had to record a real Steinway to get a top notch recording.

    Not true anymore.

    A real milestone.

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