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#2039968 - 02/27/13 04:09 AM Recording your music . . . No swear words allowed
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3875
Loc: Northern England.
Well? So you`ve sorted out this piece you`ve been prctising for a good coupla days (weeks if you`re patient and sensible) and it`s time to hit the button.

My recording system is simplicity. Overhead mobile, and recording also to the DP I use. Because the keys are extremely noisy. . .

Ya play it. Half way through, if yer lucky. Three quarters if your not. But it`s usually at the end when you lose it big time. Again . . . and again, even on simple pieces it happens.

And when you get a recording at last, you then play it back.

Oh dear. Oh dearohdearohdear, or words to that effect. In fact you invent new swear words, because the tried and trusty ones are not vitriolic enough.

Is it worth it? Seriously? I think it could be time to return to the toy trains . . .

Any helpful suggestions are most welcome, whilst my sanity and marriage are still in place!


Edited by peterws (02/27/13 02:43 PM)
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#2040053 - 02/27/13 09:28 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 403
Loc: Ireland
Peter.
Nobody can read this page. If a thread title has special characters like % and ^ the page becomes unreachable (except for programmers)

Link on forum (not working)



Instead of this

You'll have to start a new thread unless a mod can change the title.

Devane.
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#2040056 - 02/27/13 09:36 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2423
Loc: Virginia, USA
Yup, you have to get to this thread by hook or crook, you just can't click on it.

Your problem is well known - hence the "Order of the Red Dot" awarded to participants in the the ABF e-citals. The truth is, as we all know, that all that shows is the piece isn't fully prepared - "deeply" as "The Musician's Way" aptly puts it. Chances are this happens most practice sessions and we just skip over it. I'm as guilty as any but I am trying to see the errors of my ways and change ...
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#2040057 - 02/27/13 09:38 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 403
Loc: Ireland
ps
Just noticed you can get in via "recent posts" sidebar and "last post" per forum. Which would expain the view count. But that'll stop working once other threads gets posts.

Shoddy coding. tut tut.
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#2040220 - 02/27/13 02:48 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Devane]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3875
Loc: Northern England.
It`s working now; I changed the title.

I guess I could have asked "How long d`ya practice a piece before you record, or begin to detest the music you`re playing? ie, fall out of love with it?
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#2040230 - 02/27/13 03:03 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1951
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, every piano instructor who has ever lived will probably tell you ...

Play it at such a slow pace that you are very relaxed and feel like you could play it all day and never make a mistake. Once you can do that, then you could try recording that.

If you have a problem with that, then it is nerves (stage fright). I do not have an answer for that except do more of it and hopefully you will get over it.

But, you have to be sure you can play the piece in a relaxed state otherwise you will automatically fail when you are under pressure.




Edited by dmd (02/27/13 03:05 PM)
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2040253 - 02/27/13 03:37 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Sand Tiger Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1098
Loc: Southern California
For the hyper-critical there are couple of useful phrases:

* perfection is a dream, an illusion

* learn to play through your mistakes. Especially for those that play live, this is an absolute must.

* record more often, and it becomes less of an issue

* recording and listening is a good way to improve. The minor problems were always there, but when a person is playing, they may have been too busy to notice. A vital step to improving is knowing that something needs work.

I can share a story of my friend. He was a concert pianist some 30+ years ago. More recently he wanted to record a CD of his own compositions. The level of perfectionism was through the roof. Take after take after take. The pianist insisted on clean play throughs, no splicing together takes on his CD. On one song, after so much effort a relatively clean recording was made. Then he listened one more time and one chord was off on the dynamics, too loud for the perfectionist. He wanted to start over again. His partner on the recording had none of it, and edited it down.

There isn't a real point to the story, other than for amateurs with good ears, listening to recordings can be torture if a person wants it to be. The better way is to see it as a learning tool, and to keep improving, and just accept that perfection is a dream, a moving target. As a person approaches perfection, their hearing may get more critical and the target moves again.

There are one-month beginners that think they are playing well, they just don't know any better. The other side, is that they may be playing well for them.

Another story, a nephew used to compete in piano competitions. Low level stuff, but there were judges. One time the parents asked the son how he felt he had done. The young kid said, "I think I did fine." The parents had a different opinion, that the performance was below average for his skill level, but didn't want to cut the kid down on his performance day. Often times we cut ourselves down, no need for hyper-critical parents. A person can imagine the kind of psychological damage that occurs when a kid thinks they did well and the parents slam into them. As adults it may not be so life changing, but by being hyper critical of ourselves when it isn't warranted, it still causes damage.

* endorse for the effort, not the outcome

There will always be someone better. Comparisons can be odious. If a person is posting on ABF, odds are that music is a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun.





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#2040259 - 02/27/13 03:56 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: dmd]
Farmerjones Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 211
Loc: USA
Makes me think about two types of self recording:
The beginner's log. Best to wait a few monthes to listen to it, but it does track one's progress. I think it's not so much the recording itself but it teaches preparation. I agree, a real good path to a sucessfull performance, is to know the material so well, the mere thought of a clam doesn't even occur.
The second type of self recording is later on, like a demo. While im not yet so good on a piano, i've made recordings on other instruments, to the acceptance and even praise of others, but i simply can't stand to listen to myself. I hear myself so critically it makes me ill. i'll make a demo if somebody wants to hear a particular tune, but i hate to listen or watch.

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#2040262 - 02/27/13 03:57 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3624
Good comments above.

Quote:
So you`ve sorted out this piece you`ve been prctising for a good coupla days (weeks if you`re patient and sensible) and it`s time to hit the button.


Many people seem to have a wrong perception of how good they can play a piece. They only discover when they start to hit the record button. Do that a few times and your perception will become more realistic.

IMHO getting a piece performance ready is not a matter of coupla days, but coupla months or longer.
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#2040306 - 02/27/13 05:12 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Piano Martin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 6
Loc: Devon, England
The OP's comments more or less sum up my experience today when recording three songs I'd practiced over the past several weeks. The previous evening I was satisfied with all three - enough to feel it a suitable time to recored them so to track my progress - yet the moment I hit the recored button I made one mistake after another and even noticed my hands shaking as I bumbled along (which tended to make matters worse).

In hindsight I think there were several issues here aside from simply not being ready. I had only just woken up and certainly not "warmed up" on the keys; I had a limited time to make the recording and felt rushed. Also, I do wonder if practicing 100 percent of the time wearing headphones (as I do) is not such a good idea?

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#2040326 - 02/27/13 05:55 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Piano Martin]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3875
Loc: Northern England.
Yes. That`s it. The more you record, the worse it can become. It is a great gift/act of self denial almost, to walk away and do something else for a while while your composure is regained . . .2 or 3 takes, then GO! Forget the piano! There`s always tomorrow . . .

I`m new to this. It`s fun and frustrating in roughly equal measures . .
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#2040349 - 02/27/13 06:57 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1951
Loc: Pennsylvania
As I mentioned earlier ...

Play more slowly.

It takes a while to understand this concept but after you do, many of your problems will disappear.

Play slowly enough so you do not make any mistakes.

Then, play it again with no mistakes. And, again. And, again. And, again. And, again.

Now, speed up just a little tiny bit.

Then, play it with no mistakes, 5 times.

Then, speed it up a TINY bit.

Then, play it with no mistakes, 5 times.

etc ...

.... Get the picture ?

This is what works.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2040426 - 02/27/13 10:26 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
I suggest practicing performing regularly just as you practice on learning a piece of music. We spend so much time in practice mode, going back and correcting mistakes that we often forget to switch mindsets come performance time (play through mistakes, keep a steady tempo even if you hit a wrong note, don't scrutinize yourself whilst performing, etc.).

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#2040442 - 02/27/13 11:00 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Why don't you just use your recorder more. Get used to it. Think up excuses to allow it to record.
A monitor? You can go back on practice and listen to something?
Then...when you get through something you want to keep. Keep it.
No big deal.
The only problem is anxiety with the recorder. That's all.
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Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2040452 - 02/27/13 11:35 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1744
Loc: Colorado
+1

You are your own stressor in that regard - the recorder does nothing...

Regularly record your practice sessions as a method of improving your playing. You get instant feedback to your benefit and you can delete 'em as you go.

The more you practice into the recorder, (the more you use it), the more comfortable you'll be when you want to capture a recital-type piece of music.
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#2040550 - 02/28/13 05:31 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
I also suffer from the nerves of recording myself, and finding the latter half of a piece crumbling as I struggle to keep my composure. It's been great reading the advice from everyone and it's certainly given me some help as to what I should be doing different in the future. Thanks!

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#2040611 - 02/28/13 08:07 AM Re: Recording your music . . . No swear words allowed [Re: peterws]
scorpio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 561
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I, too, have red dot syndrome. I notice that I tend to hold my breath and become tense when I record, all from the conscious desire to put down a perfect recording. I also find myself repeating in my head, "you're almost there, almost done, don't mess it up."

But I know that the more I force my fingers and arms to be perfect, the less my body is allowed to do what it was trained to do. I don't force anything when I practice, I develop muscle memory to allow the tones to flow together.

I feel, when I record, I have to take a leap of faith that all of my work and practice will express itself. I have to let go and not control the actions. I just need to play.

Having said that, it still is not easy.
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#2040616 - 02/28/13 08:17 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Inlanding]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 364
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
+1

You are your own stressor in that regard - the recorder does nothing...

Regularly record your practice sessions as a method of improving your playing. You get instant feedback to your benefit and you can delete 'em as you go.

The more you practice into the recorder, (the more you use it), the more comfortable you'll be when you want to capture a recital-type piece of music.


Agreed.
I have the same issue that Peter reported. As soon as I touch the red button I'm more concentrated on NOT TO miss notes than on music itself. I think on possible listeners, or similar stupid things. Therefore I miss a great amount of concentration, and also miss the good vibes that music gives, so it just turns to be stressing.
The solution should be to do recordings almost every day, in order to reach a point where this tool/red dot becomes a friendly one, an habit.

Another solution is connecting your DP to a computer, open Audacity or a similar program and record the whole practice session. If something goes brilliant at your level, you might select it, copy, past and save as an MP3, and get tons of information from bad parts and misses.
We all dream on sharing our best moments at the piano, but perhaps a thread focused on hilarious fails could be more interesting, and we always could take some profit from those recordings. smile
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#2040669 - 02/28/13 09:50 AM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
I like this quote, from Derelux on another thread: "What is the difference between a good amateur and a true professional virtuoso? The amateur practices until he plays it right. The professional practices until he can't play it wrong."

It always amazes me just *how* good professionals are at not making mistakes. I sit in the audience hoping they play perfect, when my worry is usually totally unecessary. I can remember an interview with Boris Berezovsky, and he was talking about playing a tricky piece onstage. He made a mistake, but "improvised his way out of it", and nobody noticed!

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#2040911 - 02/28/13 04:55 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: Euan Morrison]
supertorpe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Spain. Cadiz.
Originally Posted By: Euan Morrison
"What is the difference between a good amateur and a true professional virtuoso? The amateur practices until he plays it right. The professional practices until he can't play it wrong."


Yes, and jazzwee practices until he plays it right for five times laugh


Edited by supertorpe (02/28/13 04:56 PM)
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#2041356 - 03/01/13 01:10 PM Re: Recording your music . . .%$$^)#@?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: peterws]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3875
Loc: Northern England.
I`ve just given up trying to record this piece right now. It`s "Jesu Joy" which I had fun hacking around just a tad. And now I`ve hacked around one o` the bits I`ve already done . . .so I`m just familiarising myself with that. . . for as long as it takes. On a new piano! Heh heh . . it might make the March Bar room
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