Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum What brands to consider to Restore?

Taking on a project for which one is totally unqualified and inexperienced and experiencing disastrous results in the process is a great way to learn; especially when you are working on your own stuff!

Who in their right mind would do something without at least some prerequisite knowledge or familiarization about what they were doing?

See, this is what bothers me so much… some here think that any DIYer is a dumb idiot to even try. I disagree. So, why even debate the matter… well, sometimes I feel a little feisty.

Oh yea, one more thing… anything man-made can be fixed or replaced.

I learned a long time ago that you learn by listening and watching and hanging out with those who are smarter and wiser. Why do you think I hang out here so much?

Rick

I seem to remember a post about a year or two ago about a 16 year old kid who built his own "monster grand piano" in his barn. The piano was something like 20' long and he had a youtube video of him playing it. If a 16 year old kid can do it, I think anyone with reasonable diy skills and some ambition, willingness to learn, proper tools and patience should give it a try. There are no guarantees in life, but there are plenty of learning opportunities. I agree that the claws really come out at the very mention of a DIY'er taking on a project. All one has to do mention that they want to "move a grand piano" or "tune their own piano" or "restring their piano" etc and they get pounced on like a duck on a junebug. Can a DIY'er mess things up? Of course, not only can they, but they are almost guaranteed to, but that's how you learn. I just replaced the window washer pump on my car. I'm not a mechanic and had never done that sort of thing before. Most people would have gone to a mechanic and payed shop rates for that job. I professional mechanic would have had it done in 15 minutes or less and charged $50 plus parts. I got it done in two hours and only paid for the pump, not expensive. Plus, now, every time I wash the windshield on my car I smile knowing that I tackled that project and got it done. We could use more "can do" attitude and less "you'll never make it unless your a professional". Of course caution should be exercised, and one should go into a project with their eyes wide open, but I think a lot of the brave soul who will tackle a big job and see it through to the end.

PS I did a search and found the thread on the monster piano. It can be found here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1178607.html

But the kid who built the monster piano was undoubtedly not the average DIY...probably more like genius level.

Even on something as "simple" as a tuning one often hears that it takes 1000 tunings to become good and that's with training. How well can some DIYer with little formal training hope to tune a piano even if they've done it 50 times(which I'd guess few have)? I don't think anyone is against taking an old junker piano and playing around with it, but I find the idea of taking a high quality piano or an old piano that one is trying to make into a good instrument into a DIY project a no brainer(in the sense it makes no sense to do it).

I don't know anything about the car repair you mentioned but if a mechanic can do it in 15 minutes it's got to be much simpler than rebuilding a piano.

I agree that the kid who made that piano is exceptional, but I taught myself to tune my piano with a book and by observing professional piano tuners and asking a lot of questions, and it didn't take me 1000 tunings to put a reasonably good tuning on my instrument. I'm not as good as a professional piano tuner but I can tell you that when I tune my piano it sounds much better than before I started and it holds its tuning for a good few months. I certainly have a lot more to learn about tuning pianos, but I'm happy with my tunings and I have saved hundreds of dollars and learned a lot along the way.

While I am somewhat sceptical about DIY tuning and less concerned about DIY touch-up to tuning, when it comes to action regulation and voicing, there is no way an amateur should attempt it on a quality piano.

Like others have said, if you want to try it out as a hobby, practice on a junker.

Just thought I'd add a few thoughts to this, Bob. It is not impossible for a first timer to rebuild a piano. Unfortunately the results aren't likely to be great. The discouraging problem that you have with your concept is that if you try to partner with a tech to rebuild a grand, your budget is too small for the tech to really do a complete rebuild job for $10,000. The other issue is that most core instruments that would be worth rebuilding are almost that much. Almost anything that you do to try to assist the tech would be more trouble for the rebuilder because even the tear down process should be done by someone who can note very precise positions of the plate and other details, like the string scale.

Doing the tear down yourself, especially on an older off brand would create huge issues for the rebuilder trying to reassemble. Core instruments of a lower quality that would be affordable for you are much more difficult to rebuild than a Steinway or Mason because of the availability of parts and idiosyncratic issues particular to the brand.

While the case refinishing is a big part of the job, it's a piece of cake compared to the pinblock replacement, stringing, soundboard repair and bridge duplication, scaling, action installation and regulation.

This is not meant to discourage you but grands are much more tricky than verticals because of the design of the action having to be underneath the pinblock. One can make much larger mistakes with an old upright and still have something that works after a fashion.

The only techs that would be willing to take on a partnership of rebuilding a no name grand with help from an inexperienced owner is probably someone who has never done much rebuilding either so I'm imagining it would be more like the blind leading the blind.

However that all being said, I think the best pianos of decent quality that are the least expensive and don't have some really funky bizarre issues to crop up in the rebuilding process are Baldwins from the early part of the century. Look for one of the grands made before 1930 and it will probably be pretty cheap and replacement parts are available (not from Baldwin) that will work without having to completely redesign the way the action works.

You can always go cheaper but if you do start with a little bit better quality of instrument, you will end up with a better end product. Be prepared to pay at least $15,000 to $20,000 for new pinblock, strings, action, dampers, keytops, soundboard, bridgecaps, trapwork restoration, replating and buffing hardware, etc.
Make sure you play a completed example of the technician's work before hiring them and expect that they will take the piano, tear it down, and send it back to you for refinishing, so you'll have at least four moves involved at whatever rates are local.

The logistics are such that if you do your own plate refinishing you can save money but you'll have to move that separately from the piano as well several times, so it will probably be cheaper to let the tech who is replacing the pinblock and doing the bellywork do that.

Everyone starts somewhere but it used to be that most rebuilders started working in someone else's shop and learned their craft under the guidance of someone who really knew what they were doing before they tried it on their own. Those large shops are mostly gone so the independent rebuilder can hardly afford to work for years on pianos that won't bring them any profit just for the heck of it. Most qualified rebulders as a result won't take jobs on no name instruments. So we don't mean to sound discouraging but though your idea sounds like it should work, it is unlikely to be possible on your stated budget.

The other scenario that might work is if you can find a decent piano in already good shape that just need refinishing, but not rebuilding that can simply be tuned and regulated by a tech. Find a good tech and let them know what you are looking for and they might know of someone in their clientele that has something that fills this bill. Maybe something that they restrung 10 - 15 years ago that is still in good shape.

Good luck.

Honestly, despite being a DIY wannabe I can sympathize with both sides of this age old argument. As Bob said above, its frustrating to show up as a newbie looking for help and get more harassment than advice. On the other hand, I'm sure its frustrating to have devoted a significant portion of your life to developing skills and knowledge that you are proud of and reliant on for your livelihood, and have every Tom, Dick and Harry want to pick your brain but do the work themselves, "'cause how hard can it be." I don't blame them for at times being a bit ornery, if not down right insulted by some of that.

In the end, I am grateful that there are many on this site who take the time to answer questions and share the benefits of their vast knowledge. I believe they do so because in the end they love these instruments, enjoy talking about them, and see the potential benefits to the entire piano industry/community to having more people interested in them. IMHO, I think some of the "harassment" comes from the same place. Trying to prevent someone from making a big mistake that will sour their piano experience and lead them to give up or *gasp* buy a digital piano can be just as helpful as assisting a DIY enthusiast.

All I can say in the end is that the value of the generous advice I have received here on PW far outweighs any razzing I've had to put up with, and if that's the only cost to me I consider it a real bargain I'm not much of a "pay your dues" type, but working through the corrections, warnings and admonitions is just as valuable a learning experience as anything else in terms of clarifying what you are trying to accomplish and being realistic about the likely outcomes of various paths. My only advice would be to try and just have a thick skin about it. Sure, maybe people could say things nicer sometimes, but in the end what they have to contribute benefits me much more than it does them. Taking it personally just makes it less likely that I'll have the benefit of their experience.

Hope that makes some sense, and good luck with your project!

Rob

Anything is possible, but my feeling is few amateur tuners can do a job close to a good professional tuner. Whether they think their tunings are close to a pro tuner's results may be different from whether they actually are.

What I find interesting about the oft-repeated "1000 tunings" idea is that it suggests that only piano tuners who've tuned a 1000 or more pianos should be hired, and the rest avoided.

So what does a novice piano tuner do if they want to hone their skills? Tune their own piano up and down 1000 times? Repeat their tuning classes over and over? Seems silly.

We all know it doesn't REALLY take 1000 times to learn how to do most things decently -- even brain surgery or building a skyscraper. It takes learning from experts, either directly or indirectly, and applying what you've learned. Standing on the shoulders of giants, as it were.

Conversely, if you do it 1000 times, and you've been doing it the wrong way the whole time, it doesn't matter because you're still doing it wrong. I'd rather hire the engineer who studied at Cal Poly but has only designed 5 bridges in school classes, than the acid casualty who's lived under 1000 bridges and has designed scores of them during his acid flashbacks.



Indeed. That's true in any profession. People want to fix their own cars, not pay mechanics. People want to plug in their own cable modem, not pay a technician from the cable company. People want to pick their own investments, not hire professional investment advisors and research analysts. People want to cook their own food, not go out to restaurants every night.

But different professions react differently depending on how necessary their services really are - how hard is it to DIY? If it's easy, the professional has a great racket going, and the last thing they want is for people to start DIY-ing things.

Likewise, the more a professional rails against a DIY'er doing something, the more the DIY'er is going to suspect that it IS a racket, and they really CAN do it themselves easily.

Ask your dentist about whether you should take care of your kid's fillings yourself. He'll laugh and say, "well if you really WANT to hahahahaha."

Then ask your travel agent why you shouldn't book your own travel online... he'll get very angry and defensive about it (does anyone even still have a travel agent?).

I don't think it necessarily suggests only those with 1000 tunings should be hired, but simply that a great deal of experience is generally necessary to do really excellent tunings. How many tunings are necessary(after excellent training)to be good certainly depends on the individual and one's definition of "good". I'd guess many techs would tune 1000 pianos in a couple of years so if one looks at it that way it doesn't sound like so much experience. But my main point with the 1000 figure was to contrast it with what I'd guess is the experience of many amateur techs who may have tuned their piano 10 times and additionally don't have anywhere near the training of a professional tech.

I wonder how many experienced and excellent techs think their tunings were excellent after one year's experience? Yet I think that experience would typically be far greater than most amateur tech's experience.

I think part of the challenge in any of these discussions is also just acknowledging the great diversity of perspectives and desires that seem particularly present in a large community like this. For a serious pianist focused primarily on the performance of the instrument, the question might be what's the very best piano I can get in my budget? Even then its a complicated question given the variety of preferences for sound, feel, importance of long term value etc. Someone in that position might follow a train of thought that maybe they can get a better instrument for a given budget by rebuilding an old piano, and maybe even doing some of the work themselves. That may or may not be a reasonable approach, and it seems like some of the standard comments (some of which have been repeated in this thread), caution about the risks of the unpredictability of the final product and the potential sacrifices in quality that can arise from any non-professional or less than complete work more or less assume this perspective.

What I hear in Bob's questions are quite a different perspective. Someone who places value not just on the quality of the final product, but on the experience of being part of creating something and having a personal connection to his piano. I believe I can identify with that perspective to a large degree, though maybe its not as familiar (or perhaps even seems less valid) to some of those who dedicate themselves to producing/maintaining top quality instruments for those that demand them. Don't get me wrong, I care how my piano sounds and plays, but I also know that I have a fairly uneducated "palate" and am probably a lot less picky about the finer points than a more "serious" pianist would be.

I get a lot of enjoyment out of knowing that the work I have put into it is part of why it sounds and plays as good as it does, and is part of the reason its still alive and in daily use after 140 years instead of sitting neglected or worse headed to the dump. The flip side is also true. We've owned a keyboard for about 5 years, and probably played it 10 times. Despite all its warts and modest price tag, my wife and I are each now playing almost daily. Neither of us will be playing Carnegie Hall anytime soon, but we're really enjoying it. I also tend to see all its flaws as future projects that I look forward to deriving further enjoyment from. Someday I hope to be doing exactly what Bob seems to be considering, rescuing some great old lesser known grand and giving it a new life not just by investing money but investing my own time and sweat, and in the end having something that sounds and plays well enough, but that I have real pride and joy in owning and playing.

I'd like to think that there is plenty of room for all of us in this community, and that people being excited about pianos in all different ways has something to benefit the long term prospects of the piano continuing as an instrument lots of people can enjoy playing rather than becoming just another thing we go hear/see professionals do.

Rob

What a weird debate. The OP asked about good candidates for a rebuild. He plans to keep it, not sell it, so the only person who stands to gain or suffer from the outcome is him.

If I were in the US and fancied this project I would go for either Steinway or Mason & Hamlin. Both reputable brands that will give some pride of ownership. Good core carcass.

Despite dealer protestations I am not persuaded that pianos are some amazingly intricate black art piece of kit that no one should touch unless they are super qualified tech. In essence we have wires stretched over a metal frame, being hit by hammers released by a lever. It is neither rocket science nor watchmaking and most things can be fixed. Maybe not perfectly, but who says the OP is after perfection? Part of the fun is the project itself.

Good luck I say. Enjoy finding a candidate and enjoy repairing it. If you buy a good brand that has name cachet you will limit your losses pretty much whatever you do as long as the refinish looks pretty.

Anything can be described in a single sentence but that doesn't mean it's simple.

Look into my background. Now look at the experience of Rich Galassini and Sally Phillips. I started working with my father rebuilding pianos at age 7. I've stayed in the business and am now 64 (OMG!!). Rich maanages one of the finest piano rebuilding operation in the US. Sally is the "go to" technician and troubleshooter for C. Bechstein and many other manufacturers who need expert help. She frequenly lectures to PTG chapters and teaches seminar on regulation and voicing.

None of us have any stake in the OP's situation and we all have made every effort to explain the truth of the situation.
But then again...what would we know???

And AJB's comment is particularly uninformed in that the relationship of the 5000+ moving parts in a piano are far from being "wires stretched over a metal frame being hit by a hammer" (unless ballpeen).

Thanks to everyone that has posted in my defense!

I find it rather humorous that something so petty can create such a stir but trust me I do get it, just a little bit about myself is that I wear many hats in possibly hundreds of professions my main trade is the residential house building industry I call it my main trade because it's the one trade I've stuck with over the past 40 yrs but out of that came cabinet building, electrical, plumbing, roofing, siding, and countless other aspects directly connected with that industry.

During that period I got involved in racing learned to weld, build high quality engines, learned to dismantle repair and re-assemble transmissions. I've built custom street rods and done every aspect of that including custom painting this is just a short list of the many trades or hobbies I have done in the past or still involved in, now here’s the real killer.....not one single thing mentioned above or for the many I have not even listed have I ever had formal training for and not only am I proficient in but exceed many of my competitors in quality & workmanship.

I don't know I sometimes call it a curse others call it a blessing as my wife does, every morning I'm asked so dear what hat are you wearing today? Trust me when I say I get the fact that people in a specialized field get a little upset or even to the degree of being pissed off because they have spent countless hours in a formal training environment just to have someone like myself come along and perform the tasks flawlessly with no training that have taken them years to perfect (Perhaps that's the real curse).

Here's the thing though I come seeking advice on BRANDS nothing more nothing less how that original post came to a heavily debated should he or shouldn’t he re-build his own piano action is beyond my comprehension the term “re-build my own action” never came into play.

Final mention for this post I suppose since one of you mentioned the aspect of quality of my finished product the answer is yes. I do wish to have an end result with quality but with that being said I am a self taught piano player (Who'd have thunk it :)) I have near perfect pitch so says the instructor who tried to teach me but I couldn't grasp reading music I think I was attempting to play a one fingered rendition of Mary had a little lamb from some beginners book as she left for the rest room boooooooooring so I closed the book and started to play Beethoven's Pathatique forgive the spelling one of the first songs I taught myself to play she came back in total amazement then really blew a cork when she asked me to play that again someone may have to help me here since I don't know the technical jargon associated with music but I played it in several different keys I think she called it transposing? She asked how do I do that!! I dunno was my reply, it just seemed logical to my fingers I guess. My point is I do want to have some sort of quality to the musical aspect of the instrument however I don't plan on performing for an audience nor professionally in this lifetime I just enjoy the rich sound of a live piano.

Keep up the great discussion though it make for an interesting story for a newcomer!!

Now that I am clear on your history and how you boh learn and how you view the task ahead , I think I can definatively answer the brand question in your OP.

You mentioned the perfect brand in that OP.

The best piano to serve your purposes is Story & Clark.

Welllll.... 5000+ moving parts, with about 98% of them coming in sets of 88... there is a reason the action models for the PTG/RPT exams only have three keys ;-)

Fish,
Sadly, your comment about 98% of the parts coming in sets of 88 demonstrates the vast gulf of misinformation about how pianos are assembled. To the uninitiated the uniformity of the parts of a well regulated piano makes the installation of these parts seem simple. It is the effort on the part of a really top tech PRIOR to the installation and PRIOR to the regulation that makes all the difference between a touch and sound that is ultimately controllable for the pianist and one that is a nightmare to play.

An even touch and seamless voicing starts with the painstaking process of correcting friction, alignment, and analysis of action geometry issues before mounting the parts. Boring hammers, shaping moldings and tails, meticulous measurements of the bore distance, strike distances and hanging the set at the perfect position all come into play. Setting up the dimensions correctly BEFORE any parts are regulated is the difficult part.

Piano regulation is the art of making keys of different lengths, hammers of different sizes, shanks of different thicknesses and notes with and without damper actions feel exactly the same.

So to attempt to bring this back around to the original question, it seems to me there are basically two paths one can follow when rebuilding an old piano.

1) If you are rebuilding a piano to resell, or perhaps to enjoy for a period of time but eventually sell, then it really only makes sense to focus on brands that are well recognized and command a good resale price. Steinway, M&H, maybe Baldwin, maybe maybe Chickering or Knabe might fall into this category along with maybe a few European makes. Buying a core from time periods commonly recognized to be "good" for each manufacturer is also probably wise. The quality and completeness of the work are key factors, as is the reputation of the rebuilder in trying to ensure that the money invested may be (mostly) recouped when the day comes to sell.

2) If you are building a piano for yourself (not necessarily doing it yourself), there are a lot more variables to consider. How much do you care about the name on the fallboard? How much are you willing to spend without an assumption of ever getting it back? Are you trying to build a piano to last for a decade or a century? In this case buying a good example of a lesser known brand with a good reputation to those "in the know" (many of which have been brought up already in this thread) might get you a much better starting point for less money compared to a top tier brand. If you hunt long enough you might find one with a good sound board that can just be refinished, a pinblock that is sound and can just be repinned, etc. Action parts are less likely to be available, so you'd ideally need to find one that's in good enough shape to be re-useable for rebuilding rather than a full replacement.

I believe this second path can produce a good sounding, good playing piano for a lot less money than a fully rebuilt Steinway. It will just never be worth nearly as much as a rebuilt Steinway, and most likely will never be worth anything near what it cost to build. It will also have an inherent lifespan disadvantage, as much of it will still be based on old parts in the action, soundboard etc that will not last as long as they would have if all replaced as in a full rebuild.

Probably a vast oversimplification, but does that make any sense?

As nice as it is when everyone gets along and sings kum-ba-yah around the professionally rebuild Steinway grand, I think its great to see so many passionate/knowledgeable/enthusiastic/inquisitive people participating in a spiritted discussion about something that matters to them

Rob

He he, I have a Bösendorfer! Viennese action. Not sure if artcase or victorian, but it has round legs and carved things. Unfortunately it's in Europe, but not in Sweden. Of course, not trying to land a sale, I just thought it's funny. Good luck!