Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum need help, Kawai K3 or Petrof 125 G1???

to be a bit more specific
group favorite: A.Forster, Bechstein, Grotrian, Pleyel , NY Steinway (when voiced to euro spec), Bosendorfer, Bluthner
group next to favorite: Schimmel, Estonia, Vogel
group nice to have: Sauter, NY Steinway (common voicing),
group cant complain: Shigeru Kawai, Yamaha U,C. Kawai K, RX, Hoffman & Kuhne (China)
group meh: ED Seiler, Mason Hamlin, Boston


cant wait to play: Fazioli, Hamburg Steinway, Steingraber, Petrof

can I consider that you think Petrof is the best choice??

First off, I have not played a petrof yet. But I like european tones in general AND dislike the tone of K3. So before even hearing the Petrof 125 its safe for me to say I am very likely to prefer Petrof tones over K3.

Action wise its the opposite.
Petrof employs two different actions: detoa and renner. Detoa action before 90s somehow has a bad reputation: they are more difficult to regulate and does not last very long (some say less than 20 years)
hows their action in 2005? i cannot comment. somesay better.

meanwhile K3 has the reputated Kawai Millennium III Action - one may prefer it or not, but they will not bring you trouble.

full renner action has arguably the best reputation in the industry. The ones with full renner actions I have played are amazing (thought all different due to different design):schimmel konzert, A.Forster, Steinway K52 and Pleyel uprights. The upper Petrof (starts from 131) has full Renner action and some lower Petrof has renner as well.


In short, I would have the desire to own the Petrof but afraid of their action at the same time. So I would hire a good technician to exam the piano and make sure they are good for at least the next 15 years.

Still tones are very objective - maybe ull find out you like the Kawai better.

Numbers

It's unfair to put that question to Steven. He's already stated a couple of times that he hasn't played any Petrof. Actually, it's sily to put that point-blank choice question to anyone here. You seem to want someone else to make your decision, but no one here has played that Petrof, listened to that Petrof, or in any way evaluated that Petrof. Used pianos are sold all the time with the claim that they were lightly used and are in top-notch condition. That doesn't mean that the claims are true. Such claims should be verified. It's not specific to Petrofs. It's good practice regardless of brand.

Really, this decision belongs to you. It's your daughter, your money, and your peace of mind. If the two-hour drive and the thought of hiring an independent tech for an inspection is more than you want to take on, just buy the new K3. It's a known commodity. Samples don't vary much. The action is not an issue. The price is in no way unfair. It will be a relatively easy sell if and when.....

If you are really curious to know if the Petrof is the better choice for you and your daughter, you should make the drive and pay for the inspection. The price is very attractive if and only if the piano lives up to the claims made. If it does live up to its billing, it's a sweet instrument that will be more than worth the $4200.

By "tweaking" I assume that you mean regulation and voicing. How often is impossible to say definitively, because that depends on the condition of the piano, how much it is played and how well it is housed, with particular regard to humidity and temperature levels.
A minimum requirement of keeping any piano in good playing condition is to have it tuned twice a year. Fastidious owners will have their piano tuned more frequently.
Regular tuning is the basic essential in piano care. Regular tuning will also give the piano a general check up and pick up potential or developing problems.

Tweaking as in regulation and voicing when carried out by an excellent technician should bring out the best in an instrument. For a moderately played, well maintained, domestic piano, that could be about very 5 years.

Robert.

thanks everyone for giving me so much help,very appreciate!
now I have a much clear picture of Petrof, and I almost decide which one I need to buy.
thanks again!

Robert,

I don't know who mentioned "tweaking", but in the specific instance of Petrof action problems, it's often remediation of imprecise factory work. for example key weighting. It can be expensive. OTOH, it's an inconsistent inconsistency. As some here have mentioned, consistency improved a lot (at least under GIC distribution into the US).

I bought two new Petrof pianos in 2008, on for me, one on behalf of a relative. They've both been satisfactory. Tuning stability has been quite good too. But in poking around the market, I did run across others that I could not consider.

I have a 1999 Petrof 125 upright, and I love it. Here's a story to tell you how reliable I've found it:

I bought it in late 2010, used, from an owner who had done no regulation or voicing of it and had left it sitting, largely unplayed, literally on top of a heating vent, in a back porch-like room since the day it was bought. She had >never< had it tuned, voiced or regulated, since it had been bought. Despite, this and despite the piano having been manufactured at the tail end of what some critics (Fine) have suggested was an era of slightly inconsistent quality, I've had very good luck with it.

When I first bought it, it was, amazingly, quite playable (albeit, very sour in tuning), in other words, though out of tune, it >felt< like a good piano even though no service had been done to it at all. After some experimentation, I determined that there was a single key that did not return to position, after being played, as quickly as all the others. It was a modest difference. The piano tech that I had work on it, softened up the bushings on a single small rod, made a few tweaks to the regulation (mostly adjusting the touch weight) and all was well. The "weighting" of the keys were still fairly consistent after all that time. The hammers seemed to be in good shape so there was no voicing needed.

I've had it tuned once since then. It's been about 10 months since that time, and I'm just starting to notice the tuning being a bit off (I'm kind of sensitive to this.) This is consistent with most good pianos in a stable environment. I do not have a Damp Chaser or other such device.

That the piano didn't require a major overhaul after having sat, largely unused, in a seasonally dry then humid environment, is a testament to its hardiness.

This piano has a Renner action (I've seen mention of "Full Renner" and just plain "Renner" and I still have yet to figure out what the difference is, if, indeed, there is one) as evidenced from the stamp on it.

The sound of the piano is on the bright side. When I first started playing it, it was a bit shy of being too bright (but it didn't cross that line.) Indeed, in the upper registers it sounded to me uncannily like a decent, bright, grand piano. (It was fun to play the opening bars of the Tchaikosky concerto, which sounded appropriate.) After a few years of heavy practice on it, it has mellowed a tiny bit as the hammers have been broken in (though it is still pleasantly bright).

Overall it has a very singing quality, and its sound fills a room in a good way. It is very easy to control dynamics. Pianissimo sounds pianissmo, forte sounds forte. Sf notes sing clear and strong. The low end is strong and "thrumming" (i.e., you feel the sound), but not "7' grand piano" strong. Of the dozen or so pianos I tried out when shopping around for used pianos, this one was by far the best sounding, best working, instrument I played and I played a couple of Kawais and a Mason-Hamlin (albeit, an old M-H.)

In general, I love the way it sounds.

Coming off of an Acrosonic Spinet with a very light action as my personal practice piano, I found the touch weight to be a bit heavy (~52 grams, with slightly heavy "inertia" to overcome to get the key in motion, but nothing out of the ordinary), but I rapidly got used to this. This was an issue with me, not the piano.

I love the looks of the piano. I have the red-brown, mahogany-like 111 finish, with natural wood.

The "practice" pedal is very useful, and works quite well.

My only complaints are in the positioning of the sheet music "ledge", which I occasionally rap my knuckles on if I play exuberantly, and the fact that the keyboard lid has no place or "bar" to rest on when I remove the front panel to expose the action. Also, the "soft pedal" doesn't really do much. I have learned that this issue is endemic to uprights, and is not really a Petrof problem.

Oh, that and life does not give me enough time to practice. :-)

One thing I've noticed about Kawais (and some other uprights) is that they tend to sound like the tones are coming "from inside a box", or as if the piano were draped in a very heavy cloth. Anyone else notice this?

that's exactly how I felt about Kawai for a long time. I didn't like Kawai in the past.. hated the sound (like you said it's like draped in a very heavy cloth) and the touch (super sluggish to me). and I'm referring to the used Kawai that's from 5-10 years before.

HOWEVER, I felt the newer ones with MIII actions are totally and completely different. It's like a day and night experience to me. the keys are so balanced, the tone projection is awesome, and the notes sustained in the air long. the action is very good and I love the key weight (My previous first choice was U1 but after i played Kawai, i felt Yamaha's keys were too light for me). I also played a Petrof 125 during my search, and I was very disappointed at it. not sure if it's a dealer's thing (no/min prep), that Petrof was exactly like how you describe the Kawai. the price of that petrof was very good and I really wanted to like it, but the sound was so draped in a very heavy cloth.. no projection.. and.. just not enjoyable.

having all that said, it's all personal preference and judgement and also if the dealer has done a good job on the piano. but I just want to give my 2 cents to you on the newer kawai.

For me, the credibility of posters who denigrate any very reputable piano maker is always questionable. I ask myself how many pianos of this maker has the poster played? What models were they and in what condition were they?
Indeed, there are some instances of posters who give opinions, sometimes masquerading as factual information, about pianos that they have never even played.
We all need to be fair and honest when stating our opinions, especially the majority of us here who are piano enthusiasts with very limited experience of the extensive range of pianos available today.

Robert.

Hello 999988887777..Your daughter is 6 years old its not have too much sense that how to play with the piano.I also gave the gift of my son on the birthday Petrof which is very good for the playing point of views.I recommend to you the Petrof.

Hello 999988887777..Your daughter is 6 years old its not have too much sense that how to play with the piano.I also gave the gift of my son on the birthday Petrof which is very good for the playing point of views.I recommend to you the Petrof.

That's good to know about the newer Kawais, since the brand is so common. The ones I've tried out were generally in the back of music stores, or in practice rooms at my local university, and weren't always new and probably not in tip top shape. But stilll...

To be honest, I've only ever played one Petrof upright (I've seen a few grands here and there, though)- the one I own. The experience I've had has been good. It's too bad that not all folks have the same. Pianos are very individual. I suppose it is always best to try out the exact piano you intend to get before buying.

The new Kawai K5,K6,K8 has a new cabinet design to improve the tone projection.
Inverse Tone Release System on K5,K6



and Full Spectrum Tone Release System on K8



its a small trick but really does the job and open up the sound.
For me K5 is a significant step up to K3.

It's nice that you posted the qualification, but do you think it might have been better to have wirtten nothing at all about Kawai pianos based on the evidence available to you?

I enjoyed your story of the Petrof on the porch though. It's a nice testimony to that 125 that it could withstand the combination of abuse and neglect.

even though I didn't like the 1 particular petrof I had played, i still think it's a great brand and great instrument. I had played new Kawai that I didn't like. like the old saying - every instrument is so unique.

I really liked vogel and shimmel but they're just completely out of my price range. If I have a choice, I kinda slightly prefered the european brand. I felt they have more characters. but believe it or not, I could only locate 1 petrof upright in the whole chicagoland at the time of my search. nothing in used market and there's only 1 dearler and they only had 1 upright. I asked if they'd have more coming in but they said they didn't plan to import more since the brand didn't sell very well.

This thread just keeps getting better and better.!

Hi 999988887777,

Not sure if you have decided on K3 or Petrof (didn't read the entire thread). I recently have purchased a Kawai K3, upgrading from a Yamaha digital CLP320. It's like from earth to heaven. Makes me wonder why I had kept the digital for two years and not playing an acoustic. My experience for shopping piano made me believe to go for the new pianos, unless the used one is "like new" in every sense of a piano's quality. I didn't play any Petrof. Got no good used ones or new Petrof in my area. My piano teacher picked the K3 out of almost 50 pianos in that store we visited. She liked the range that K3 produces. It allows you to do many different things, which I have to learn obviously.

It's been two weeks, and my experience with it has been great. It's the right size for home use. Keys are heavier than the average which I like. Can't complain about the bass keys. But there are a few keys in the high register can be more mellow. Specifically the keys C, D & E one octave up from the center. It's a little too bright for me. But I guess I can ask the tuner to do something about it.

Also, forgot to mention K3 was Piano of the year from 2008 to 2011 by Music Merchandise Review's customer survey. We don't know the 2012 winner yet.