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#2040386 - 02/27/13 09:07 PM Trills
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
I am still working on Mozart's 545. I might be working on this for a long long time.

I am starting to get the timing down with the metronome but the trills are a problem.

The very first trill in the piece is tough, but later when the same melody modulates into F the trill is on a B flat which is even harder.

Any ideas on good methods to master this trill?

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#2040421 - 02/27/13 10:14 PM Re: Trills [Re: MarkAW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
What sort of trouble are you having? Can you describe it?
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2040438 - 02/27/13 10:51 PM Re: Trills [Re: Derulux]
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
Originally Posted By: Derulux
What sort of trouble are you having? Can you describe it?


With the B flat finger placement is an issue. And how many keystrokes should one get here?

I am also having trouble staying in tempo with the trill.


Edited by MarkAW (02/27/13 10:53 PM)

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#2040447 - 02/27/13 11:09 PM Re: Trills [Re: MarkAW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
Originally Posted By: Derulux
What sort of trouble are you having? Can you describe it?


With the B flat finger placement is an issue. And how many keystrokes should one get here?

I am also having trouble staying in tempo with the trill.

I'm not sure I understand your specific issues well enough to offer detailed advice. If you can post a video, that may help.

The most common issue with trills that I see is a lack of independence. The fingers mash up, fail to release a note, and hence fail to play the note on the next repetition. Characteristic feeling is a sense of "stiffness" like you can't move your fingers. They feel sluggish or stuck in place.

This is a coordination issue. Without getting into which specific technique trouble may be causing it, since like I said, I'm not sure I understand your specific issue, what I can say is that slow practice, one note at a time, and using a metronome can help. You also need to line up the notes of the trill with the notes of the LH. That will also help determine/internalize the correct number of repetitions.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2040460 - 02/28/13 12:03 AM Re: Trills [Re: MarkAW]
MarkAW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 24
Where should your fingers strike the keys? And how many times?


Edited by MarkAW (02/28/13 12:41 AM)

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#2040536 - 02/28/13 03:59 AM Re: Trills [Re: MarkAW]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
I just watched this last night for a piece I've been learning and if I remember correctly, Josh Wright referenced k545 specifically in his video. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANaWudjhJkw

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#2040760 - 02/28/13 12:59 PM Re: Trills [Re: Bobpickle]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 405
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
without posting a video so some of the good players can address your problems, I would go with ....


Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
I just watched this last night for a piece I've been learning and if I remember correctly, Josh Wright referenced k545 specifically in his video. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANaWudjhJkw


Bob, you beat me to it!

I have used this technique for trills when I find them, and currently using it for the one r.h. trill in the Mozart K576 (a BEAST!) and the r.h. trill at the end of the Debussy Suite Bergamasque Prelude.

It is a terrific way to improve trills.

I will add to this, however, that after each short speed burst, you check in with the body and totally relax your arm before the next 'burst'.

In the online publication at

www.pianofundamentals.com


there is a section for trills @ http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.3.1
, but this incorporates ideas and concepts introduced earlier in the same publication.

enjoy the journey!

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2041039 - 02/28/13 09:27 PM Re: Trills [Re: MarkAW]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1151
Originally Posted By: MarkAW
Where should your fingers strike the keys?


Since one finger is on a black key, the entire hand must be moved in toward the fallboard so that the second finger maintains its curved position. It shouldn't stretch out to reach the key. So to minimize the distance you move the hand in, only move so far that the second finger hits the flat top part of the black key (not on the sloped part of the key). Does this answer the question?

Then for fingering, if I use 2-3 on B-flat and C, I find I have to spread apart my fingers slightly which is detrimental to having easy motion. So I find it easier to trill here with 2-4. That also allows the hand to be marginally sloped down from the black key which gives the second finger more freedom to move without it feeling squished and stuck on the key. Note that you're not actually twisting the hand, it's just what naturally happens in this position.

In the video mentioned above, Josh says the trill should be independent of the left hand. I think this unnecessarily complicates things and you shouldn't have to worry about that at this point. If you can, do two RH notes for each LH note. If you think that sounds too slow for a trill, try 3 RH notes to each LH note. Also strive for dynamic evenness while you do that, as putting an emphasis on every two notes in the trill will make it not sound like a trill anymore.

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#2042130 - 03/03/13 02:55 AM Re: Trills [Re: Arghhh]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1393
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Arghhh
. . .
In the video mentioned above, Josh says the trill should be independent of the left hand. I think this unnecessarily complicates things and you shouldn't have to worry about that at this point. If you can, do two RH notes for each LH note. If you think that sounds too slow for a trill, try 3 RH notes to each LH note. Also strive for dynamic evenness while you do that, as putting an emphasis on every two notes in the trill will make it not sound like a trill anymore.


I think Josh is actually playing _triplets_ in his "slow" trill for K 545 -- that is, three RH notes against 2 LH notes. His 'fast' trill is two RH notes against 1 LH note.

It's an interesting way to keep the piece's tempo fairly quick, without bumping up against one's personal "trill speed limit".

. Charles



Edited by Charles Cohen (03/03/13 02:56 AM)

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