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Originally Posted by bennevis


But I've never heard such pianists play to the standard of those who get engagements in the big international concert halls.


Interesting. That has not been my experience at all. When I think of the best piano performances I've heard live, the most memorable, inspired, powerful, etc, only a minority of these were provided by internationally famous pianists playing in big concert halls. Less than 25%. Non-famous pianists play better than famous ones very frequently.

Then there is the problem of the halls. The biggest names tend to play in the biggest spaces, which are disadvantageous to a large portion of the piano repertoire. Also, it often happens that the qualities that make a particular artist sound special on recordings are simply not audible in Stern-sized caverns. In general I've had better luck with small halls, churches, classrooms, living rooms, etc.

Of course, when I buy an expensive ticket to see an internationally famous pianist in a giant hall, I am priming myself to have a big experience. Expectations are high, and I listen differently, I'm sure. Generally, this probably enhances my enjoyment, but it also makes it harder to be caught off-guard, to be surprised or stunned.


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Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge

Then there is the problem of the halls. The biggest names tend to play in the biggest spaces, which are disadvantageous to a large portion of the piano repertoire.



That's a very good point, I think.

Another element is the incessant travel that the touring artists are doing, compared to hearing someone on their home turf. I think there's a kind of dislocation and lack of centeredness in some touring professionals because of it, and it can show up in their playing. And being in a more or less constant state of jet lag can mess with circadian rhythms, too, which I also think can have a negative effect on playing. There's just this underlying sense of the artist being slightly out of kilter (or worse, quite definitely out of kilter), even if they are generally very good.


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Originally Posted by JoelW
Ingrid Fliter (I never knew how good she is. INSANELY good. How did she lose to Yundi...)

The Beethoven/Chopin recital I heard her do last summer in California was one of the biggest sleeping pills of the year. I don't know if she just had a bad day or not, but I was completely shocked to see that she had gotten THAT far in a competition of that magnitude when offering entirely passionless readings of the F minor ballade, op 27 nr 2, appassionata etc, not to mention she was having memory issues and played "safe" the entire evening.

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Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Non-famous pianists play better than famous ones very frequently.

Then there is the problem of the halls. The biggest names tend to play in the biggest spaces, which are disadvantageous to a large portion of the piano repertoire. Also, it often happens that the qualities that make a particular artist sound special on recordings are simply not audible in Stern-sized caverns. In general I've had better luck with small halls, churches, classrooms, living rooms, etc.

Of course, when I buy an expensive ticket to see an internationally famous pianist in a giant hall, I am priming myself to have a big experience. Expectations are high, and I listen differently, I'm sure. Generally, this probably enhances my enjoyment, but it also makes it harder to be caught off-guard, to be surprised or stunned.



I agree that if you sit in the back of huge halls, you're not likely to get a very satisfying sound experience in solo piano recitals. I'm fortunate in that even in the biggest hall I go to in London, I get to sit quite close to the piano, in a cheap seat (usually <$12). In some smaller halls, I have to sit much further away, and pay more for the privilege....

But over the years, I've pruned down the number of recitals by well-known names that I go to, because some of them are somewhat predictable and play the same repertoire again and again with no change in interpretation. I'll only go if their program contains something I really want to hear, preferably something I've not heard them play before.

I'm more likely to go to one by someone I've never heard live before - frequently a recent competition winner, or someone who's just come to the fore recently because they've just signed a big recording contract (apparently there are still recording companies prepared to gamble on doing that), or promoted by someone famous like Argerich. In such instances, it's the pianist rather than the program that's the attraction. These pianists can sometimes be more interesting than most of the star names, but I often wish they'd be more adventurous in their choice of repertoire. But it's still the case that IMO, the majority of these (usually young) pianists sound much like anyone else, with little individuality or magic that makes them stand out from the crowd. Some sound like they've played the same pieces once too often.

Which is why, when someone like Benjamin Grosvenor comes along (who not just plays with a personal stamp, but also programs adventurous repertoire), it's like a breath of fresh air. But he certainly isn't an unknown, not by a long stretch. I'm still looking forward to the day when I go to a concert by someone not so young with no big reputation, and wonder why he/she still hasn't been taken up by a big agent, been given a recording contract etc, etc.

Until then, I've just have to believe that cream really will always rise to the top, one way or another, and that there is no hitherto undiscovered beverage where the cream has been languishing for some time, still waiting for the opportunity to rise......


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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge

Then there is the problem of the halls. The biggest names tend to play in the biggest spaces, which are disadvantageous to a large portion of the piano repertoire.
That's a very good point, I think.
I've heard numerous recitals form the upper balcony of Carnegie Hall and never felt there was a problem in terms of the sound.

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Originally Posted by wr
Another element is the incessant travel that the touring artists are doing, compared to hearing someone on their home turf. I think there's a kind of dislocation and lack of centeredness in some touring professionals because of it, and it can show up in their playing. And being in a more or less constant state of jet lag can mess with circadian rhythms, too, which I also think can have a negative effect on playing. There's just this underlying sense of the artist being slightly out of kilter (or worse, quite definitely out of kilter), even if they are generally very good.


I've noticed this also, and "out of kilter" is a good way to describe it. A sense that the famous pianist is somehow disoriented. Heavy touring -- flying to a new city every few days, for months -- must be brutal, particularly for the no-longer-young.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I've heard numerous recitals form the upper balcony of Carnegie Hall and never felt there was a problem in terms of the sound.


What I described above isn't really a matter of having a problem with the sound. The acoustics in Carnegie Hall are very nice, famously so, even in the balconies and at the back, maybe even especially at the back. But it's still a huge hall. Certain repertoire (much of it originally played in parlors or salons) is less effective there, unless presented in an exaggerated, big-hall way. Certain styles of playing don't project well in enormous spaces, and have to be adapted. Certain subtleties are not audible.

And for the listener, it's just a different experience, acoustically and psychologically. Wouldn't you rather hear one of your Great Pianists in Weill, or in Le Poisson Rouge, or in someone's living room?

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Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I've heard numerous recitals form the upper balcony of Carnegie Hall and never felt there was a problem in terms of the sound.


What I described above isn't really a matter of having a problem with the sound. The acoustics in Carnegie Hall are very nice, famously so, even in the balconies and at the back, maybe even especially at the back. But it's still a huge hall. Certain repertoire (much of it originally played in parlors or salons) is less effective there, unless presented in an exaggerated, big-hall way. Certain styles of playing don't project well in enormous spaces, and have to be adapted. Certain subtleties are not audible.

And for the listener, it's just a different experience, acoustically and psychologically. Wouldn't you rather hear one of your Great Pianists in Weill, or in Le Poisson Rouge, or in someone's living room?


I've often thought, when reading through it, that a major reason Medtner's music isn't better known is because it isn't designed for large halls and big audiences.


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Originally Posted by wr

I've often thought, when reading through it, that a major reason Medtner's music isn't better known is because it isn't designed for large halls and big audiences.



I'd have thought that Chopin fitted that description rather better - he always thought of his music as 'salon' music and that's where he preferred to play it. Even his piano concertos, which was often performed in salons as chamber music (string quartet or quintet with piano).

In contrast, Medtner's concertos are large-scale. As large as his pal's Rachmaninoff's in fact. His solo piano music may not have the bombast of Rach's, but it still sounds 'bigger' than most of Chopin's.


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Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I've heard numerous recitals form the upper balcony of Carnegie Hall and never felt there was a problem in terms of the sound.


What I described above isn't really a matter of having a problem with the sound. The acoustics in Carnegie Hall are very nice, famously so, even in the balconies and at the back, maybe even especially at the back. But it's still a huge hall. Certain repertoire (much of it originally played in parlors or salons) is less effective there, unless presented in an exaggerated, big-hall way. Certain styles of playing don't project well in enormous spaces, and have to be adapted. Certain subtleties are not audible.

And for the listener, it's just a different experience, acoustically and psychologically. Wouldn't you rather hear one of your Great Pianists in Weill, or in Le Poisson Rouge, or in someone's living room?
I have heard every kind of repertoire played at Carnegie Hall(including the most intiimate pieces and pieces from every compositional era) and think they all work quite well there.

I'd say that a hall that big is not ideal for any repertoire from both a viewing and listening perspective. I rarely go to CH these days but spend most of my time at the Mannes concert hall which holds around 300 and, for me, is an ideal size. Not to mention the best seats at Mannes, when there is any cost at all, are 1/5 or less the price of the orchestra seats at CH.

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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by wr

I've often thought, when reading through it, that a major reason Medtner's music isn't better known is because it isn't designed for large halls and big audiences.



I'd have thought that Chopin fitted that description rather better - he always thought of his music as 'salon' music and that's where he preferred to play it. Even his piano concertos, which was often performed in salons as chamber music (string quartet or quintet with piano).

In contrast, Medtner's concertos are large-scale. As large as his pal's Rachmaninoff's in fact. His solo piano music may not have the bombast of Rach's, but it still sounds 'bigger' than most of Chopin's.


What I meant about Medtner wasn't about overall scale, but something more difficult to describe. It is something about the density of the texture, the amount of fine detail. Also, I wasn't really thinking about the concertos, since I've not played through them, but the solo works.

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Originally Posted by bennevis

In contrast, Medtner's concertos are large-scale. As large as his pal's Rachmaninoff's in fact.

No disagreement there, but listening to and checking the scores of all three Medtner concertos, what a lot of empty note spinning, difficulties for their own sake. Utterly flaccid music, no wonder they are never programed.
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His solo piano music may not have the bombast of Rach's, but it still sounds 'bigger' than most of Chopin's.

I never thought Medtner 'bigger' than Chopin, just more self-indulgent.


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