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#2040880 - 02/28/13 04:08 PM Online piano tuning courses for self
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
What do you think of online piano tuning courses just so I can tweak my piano between tunings? I live in a remote area and it is not easy to get a tuner to come over. I have a 2012 Kawai. I guess I should practice the tuning on an old piano first of course.

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#2040983 - 02/28/13 07:12 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Why not just buy a book on tuning? For what you want to do, you wouldn't really neesd to invest in a whole online course.

The Arthur Reblitz book is excellent, and another good option is the Haynes Piano Manual. You can see descriptions and review of them on my website.

Best regards,

David.
http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/piano-books.php
http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/haynes-piano-manual.php

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#2040987 - 02/28/13 07:16 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I have a few customers I have coached over the years to keep unisons touched up and such...maybe your tuner will oblige if you ask nicely.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2041020 - 02/28/13 08:38 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
Thanks for your input, I'll look into both options. This is a great forum to get information from professionals.

Brooke

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#2041089 - 02/28/13 11:15 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
No. Just... no. If anything, follow Emmery's advice. And/or, get Verituner and some quality piano tuning tools, and some books, and have at it.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2041283 - 03/01/13 10:27 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Mario Bruneau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 133
Loc: Québec, Canada
You can also start by viewing YouTube videos.

But the problem with that is that some are not doing a good job and some piano tuning videos on YouTube are plain misleading.

You can try on my site, I have put some YouTube videos but I have commented on them so to guide you.

My Video Tutorial is soon to be released in English so you might check it out too.

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#2041533 - 03/01/13 05:57 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
You can download for free a trial version of Tunelab.

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#2041535 - 03/01/13 06:05 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: David Boyce]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 218
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: David Boyce
You can download for free a trial version of Tunelab.

And you can do a complete tuning with the trial version, too. Just avoid changing notes (it stops for two minutes after every 14th note) and, if you're using the Android version, don't touch the phone during the delays.

But that's overkill if you just want to adjust the occasional octave or unison.

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#2041624 - 03/01/13 10:25 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
It isn't rocket science. Unisons are a simple, difficult, chore. Tuning them also tunes who ever is doing the tuning, in that it activates brain circuitry directly controlling our hearing. This is valuable for any musician. The home tuner can worry about stability later, if the pin has to be adjusted daily, it costs nothing. I say, go for it, but odds are, you are going to break a string. Either by turning the wrong pin or turning the right pin but listening to the wrong note, or B!ang! doesn't matter. If you are not mindful about where you put the hammer, you will break a string.
I think any reasonably sensitive person can equate pin movement with pitch after enough trial and error. If the basic understanding of the friction/tension/pin is there, experience will quickly teach the diligent the rewards of finesse.
Regards,

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#2042810 - 03/04/13 11:31 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
You are all so knowledgeable and I'll bet this all comes easy to you. However, I am a newbie...I was thinking about the first two options offered. While a book can be helpful there is nothing like seeing and hearing the instruction. Better still someone who knows what to do teaching those little things that sometimes make all the difference with getting it right or frustration and failure.

Since I know so little about this it might be useful to read then "see" and hear through the video. I appreciate all the suggestions, will look at them all. I will let you know how it worked out. This might take some time. I was thinking of getting an old piano on the cheep so as not to mess mine up, I want to play mine for lessons and that might be difficult if I mess things up while learning how to tune.

Thanks ,
Brooke

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#2042816 - 03/04/13 11:44 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
The idea of a "learning" piano is a very good idea.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2043143 - 03/05/13 01:31 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
Yes, a "learning" piano, especially if I mess up!

Thanks for the help. You guys are awesome!

Brooke

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#2043192 - 03/05/13 04:06 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Aussie tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 75
Loc: South Australia
Can I highly recommend you buying a quality tuning lever if this what you want to do rather than a cheap learner one. Over my 54 years of tuning I have used all sorts of tuning levers and recently purchased a Fugan lever and I am amazed how nice it is to use. It has a carbon fibre shaft and is very light and strong. A 2012 Kawai could have extremely tight pins which you wont be prepared for, so get a long shaft model.
http://www.fujanproducts.com/ . Tuning and setting the pin takes a lot of practice so using a quality lever will give you a head start.
Robin

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#2043206 - 03/05/13 05:08 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
On your own piano you are prone to obtain a tired pin after some training, the pianos used for learning tuning have the pins and strings changed until it is not possible anymore (unless the pins are so large that tuning is almost impossible with some precision)

Reblitz say no much about tuning and all that partial match control theory is real but can be misleading.

Mario Bruneau made a huge job on videos and animation, but shows only his own method, where the pin find its natural place because it is made free by impacts.

slow tuning is not as hard on the block, but concert tuners have no enough time to do it, often so many are using that nudge and impact method. Concert pianos are repaired more often, due to their value, the cost of repair is not considered important. (they are changed for more recent ones after some time anyway)

On older pianos, or if one need to learn on one piano only, slow method with high control is absolutely harmless to the block and the pins.

In the end that is the pin that say to the tuner that the note is tuned, so felling all its motion from the start of the move to the end is really providing some control on the process.








Edited by Olek (03/05/13 05:18 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2044225 - 03/06/13 11:08 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Olek]
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
Thank you both for the info and insight. Having someone with expert experience is sooo helpful. Good tools are very important to do a good job with little or no frustration or even just to be able to do the job at all! In this case I want to do it right.

I was thinking of putting an ad in the local paper about purchasing an inexpensive piano or I guess I could ask some music teachers. I'm not sure on how to go about it.

Thanks,

Brooke

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#2045480 - 03/09/13 11:35 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi,
What online course are you thinking of? I am doing this with a student in Australia next month.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2045501 - 03/09/13 01:18 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Olek]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Olek
Reblitz say no much about tuning and all that partial match control theory is real but can be misleading.


Isaac can you please explain why the partial match theory is misleading and what tuning method you propose is better than that?

Thank you
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2045759 - 03/10/13 01:42 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Brooke2949 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 14
Loc: WY
I don't know which course, I haven't gotten that far yet. I thought I would start by reading first. Any suggestions for an online course?

Brooke

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#2047715 - 03/13/13 03:04 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Good tuning technique can produce great results and takes much education, time and practice to develop. Improper tuning technique can break strings and damage the instrument in more ways than one might think. Read everything that you can. The PTG website also offers good study resources. Visit with the piano tech schools. Ask lots of questions. Make an informed choice. Best wishes smile
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicæ

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2106812 - 06/23/13 02:54 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Brooke2949
I don't know which course, I haven't gotten that far yet. I thought I would start by reading first. Any suggestions for an online course?

Brooke


As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2106830 - 06/23/13 03:55 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: Olek
Reblitz say no much about tuning and all that partial match control theory is real but can be misleading.


Isaac can you please explain why the partial match theory is misleading and what tuning method you propose is better than that?

Thank you


Sorry I missed your post Mark. I just say it makes you listen to the most prominent beat but also to filter too much.

Also you listen with partial match on one string generally, listening partial match with the final unison is really tiring.

I have heard tuning s where the partial match was emphasized, as 12 th in the soprano, and that seem to go against homogeneity of the tuning generally speaking.

In fact for years I thought it was an absolute necessity to compare M3 and 10Ths or 10ths and 17ths, to know how is the octave and I was surprised that it is not at all necessary, nor for 5ths. You can train to listen directly to the whole activity and it is way quieter.

I guess that this was due to the learning of the stacked M3ds that put the accent on FBI from the start.
I could not imagine that you can get stacked M3 while tuning with 4ths and 5ths.

In the end it is possible. May be it is more easy for me because I learned first without those octave size theory, I dont know.

My first tuning master, simply told me when the octave was nice. it was then "consonant" something simple.

But to listen to that one may possibly get used to hear very slow beats in the octave, as the consonance is when they have lowered enough.
Using just one partial mat(ch possibly can make octave mismatches, I thought that the iH was more smooth and even than it is ,k may be the reason why a serial of octaves using partial match can sound somewhat unreal at some point.

That's just me, possibly, but I am happy to be back at something more directly related to the music.

In the end I feel no desire to test the size of octave I use, I know sometime I make them more open and sometime less.




Edited by Olek (06/23/13 03:57 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2106831 - 06/23/13 03:55 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.

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#2106835 - 06/23/13 04:03 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2106848 - 06/23/13 04:44 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Olek]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Olek
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink


And smarter.

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#2106896 - 06/23/13 07:01 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Herr Weiss]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Olek
We never are THE ONLY ONES (there are always people more silly than us wink


And smarter.


Impossible !
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2106939 - 06/23/13 08:12 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Brooke2949]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2106978 - 06/23/13 10:23 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Gary Fowler]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


I tuned for a really excellent pianist a while back, she had a Yamaha C7 and played regularly on cruise ships. There were three different tuning hammers laying around the room and the piano sounded absolutely dreadful, I mean utterly horrendous when I arrived. There was some kind of make-shift cotton mute laying on the plate. I spent a couple of hours tuning the piano and getting it back into shape. When I was finished, all she did was sat at the piano and started banging on one bass note over and over with a disappointed look on her face claiming she needed to tune the piano herself again, as it was not 'right'.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2107054 - 06/24/13 04:47 AM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Gary Fowler]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


If you do show them how to bring an unison back, why not, but even the ones that are gifted cannot really do it, and once the unison you leave are stable enough, there is no point to retune them (they do not sound horrible even when the piano is out of tune) . When an unison move , first zingles appears on the notes with less good hammer mating, then some sort of slow roll appears, which is typically one of the most difficult thing in tuning (correct just minor things on unison)

So in the end no much is left to the customer he could do himself.

I do not push them but if they ask I do not discourage them too much.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2107265 - 06/24/13 03:01 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Herr Weiss]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
[quote=Brooke2949]
As far as I know, I am the only person offering this at this time. Email mark@mrtuner.com and I will put you on my mailing list.


Very surprised that you are not aware that Bill Bremmer teaches via SKYPE, besides all the free articles and videos on his wonderful web site.


I am too! I was not aware. Bill is an acquaintance of mine; he was my examiner when I took the CTE exam.

Brooke, if I were you, when you're ready, contact Bill and me, and anyone else you can find who offers this service, and interview us over Skype and find someone who best suits your learning style.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2107269 - 06/24/13 03:07 PM Re: Online piano tuning courses for self [Re: Jbyron]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jbyron
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Some of my best, most loyal customers, are those who once tried to tune their own pianos. I always encourage customers to "go for it". I will even order the tools(hammer, mutes, etc) they will need.


I tuned for a really excellent pianist a while back, she had a Yamaha C7 and played regularly on cruise ships. There were three different tuning hammers laying around the room and the piano sounded absolutely dreadful, I mean utterly horrendous when I arrived. There was some kind of make-shift cotton mute laying on the plate. I spent a couple of hours tuning the piano and getting it back into shape. When I was finished, all she did was sat at the piano and started banging on one bass note over and over with a disappointed look on her face claiming she needed to tune the piano herself again, as it was not 'right'.


I've got a few of those stories too. I just quietly walk out and make a mental note never to call or tune for that person again. Check out Michael Port's "Book Yourself Solid". He mentions the "Velvet Rope"; a concept where you tailor your business to serve the customers you love to work for, and they love you. They get to pass the Velvet Rope.

I still wonder though if that person had some good direction, if she wouldn't have more respect for tuners. I would say the most important thing that my students learn from my course, is that.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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