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#2041118 - 03/01/13 01:17 AM Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Does anyone have a home built or after market solution to replace/enhance the EL Cheapo music desk on the Kawai VPC-1 ?

It is supposed to be a piano based controller, but what piano has such a dysfunctional music desk?

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#2041122 - 03/01/13 01:24 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
It is supposed to be a piano based controller, but what piano has such a dysfunctional music desk?




I expect I'm going to regret asking you this, but how is the VPC1's music rest 'dysfunctional', exactly?

It's primary function is to hold musical scores, which is visible in the above image.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041131 - 03/01/13 01:55 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
Although I'm buying The VPC and it's a great instrument, I fully agree with the Journey. We discussed it before - it should have been something similar to the transparent ES7 additional stand (that come with the extra accessoiry ).

Somehow the Kawai design & development department missed this and now seems to defend the clumsy music rest at all cost ! For the stage Piano's it's fine, for a pure (classic?!) piano controller board like the VPC it should have been better. I hope for a redisigned Kawai music rest for the VPC as assecoiry somewhere in the future. Happily spend some extra on it when it comes out.

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#2041132 - 03/01/13 01:59 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Compare it to the music desk on an RX or a K5...
Notice the dimensions and notice the solid materials used, rather than being composed primarily of low gauge wire and thin air. Note the relative depth from the back of the keys to the front of the music desk.

This is 2013.

You need a PC to make the VPC-1 work.

Likewise, increasingly, music is something that also comes out of a PC, not a book. You print out on computer paper, whether from a site such as www.imslp.org or from whatever notational package you are using to arrange or compose your scores for whatever studio work you are doing. It is common when learning new classical pieces to make clean copies out of the Henle and take them together so you can have 4 sheets visible on the music desk. Jazz lead sheets might even be written by hand on smaller dimension pieces of loose paper.

The way pianos are played in 2013 puts higher functional requirements on the music desk that are met by Kawai's real pianos. But on the VPC-1 the music desk is woefully inadequate. It is almost identical to the kind of cheapo strapon desk that Korg delivered over a decade ago on their low end range....

The VPC-1 is supposed to be an authentic piano controller which is why it doesn't have wheels and whistles. But real pianos are played from sheets of paper and you can't play when your paper is held in a fixed position outside of the range of your bifocals -- when it isn't curling around the wire or falling through the cracks....

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#2041133 - 03/01/13 02:05 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: JFP]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: JFP
...I'm buying The VPC


Where are you buying yours?

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#2041135 - 03/01/13 02:14 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
JFP, thanks for adding a little more information.

As I believe I wrote previously, the VPC1 shares the same music rest as the MP10.

The metal wire construction is pretty strong, however I agree that its appearance isn't terribly pleasant. After market accessories such as a 'deluxe' music rest, pitchbend/modulation wheel add-on, or furniture stand are all worthwhile suggestions. However, as with any industry, proven demand must exist before development can be considered.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041141 - 03/01/13 02:31 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
Don't need pitch wheel , knobs and sliders - it's a piano. Do need a good music rest - it's a piano.

Don't know why wheels etc are dragged in the conversation . The VPC is intended as a piano controller , not full blown master keyboard, so it's fine as it is. Just the music rest is not well thought through. Kawai can either choose to ignore that, or do a mea-culpa and come up with a solution (better rest as accessoiry). I don't think it would bankrupt the company ?!

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#2041146 - 03/01/13 02:47 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
By 'better rest', am I correct in thinking you mean 'more attractive rest', yes?

The functionality (or dysfunctional-ity to reference theJourney's post) isn't an issue, correct?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041150 - 03/01/13 02:56 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
It's both. It is not completely dysfunctional, that would drag to far, but it can be better. The ES transparent stand was a far better approach in both functionality and design. I know how I disliked the stand on my MP6, music would fold, fall off and the angle wasn't quite right to put big books on. Also it lacked enough space , for example when you would like to have 3 pages in a row (it happens in classical music). On the stands of the cabinet KAWAI's it all works well, on the transparent stand too, but with the above stand its not quite right and comfortable. So , it would serve both purposes - design and functionality - to have a better stand. Mind also the angle. Very important to keep your music books and sheets at their place during use...don't know how that will be on theVPC yet.

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#2041151 - 03/01/13 03:01 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kumi_27 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 28
Loc: TG, Poland
Eeee.... A wire? Had it in Roland A-33 years ago.
Dysfunctional +1

I'd buy a sheet of tinted acrylic glass and put it on front of that wire.
_________________________
Michael / GEM RP90

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#2041155 - 03/01/13 03:11 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: Kumi_27]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Kumi_27
Eeee.... A wire? Had it in Roland A-33 years ago.
Dysfunctional +1


Roland A-33:


I agree, that's horrible.

Kawai VPC1:


Not beautiful, but certainly more functional.

Originally Posted By: Kumi_27
I'd buy a sheet of tinted acrylic glass and put it on front of that wire.


Yes, that'd work.

Cheers,
James
x

_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041156 - 03/01/13 03:13 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kumi_27 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 28
Loc: TG, Poland
Certainly not much more, I see. Unless You're taking more wire into account smile
_________________________
Michael / GEM RP90

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#2041158 - 03/01/13 03:27 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 304
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Seems it's the same rest that the ES7 has, isn't it?
If so, I can tell it doesn't work either with thick books (which tend to get closed and the rest ledge can't keep them in place)or too small sheets, but other models share this lack of design, I recall seeing pics here, of some custom made solution to hold sheets.
So it's obvious that a good rest should have a closed back and a higher (a thumb or even more) frontal ledge (is ledge the word? flange, rim?). It should be broader, too.
Btw, James, in your picture you can see that right sheets are about to slip, and are too curved to be read. Maybe it's common in Japan smile
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2041169 - 03/01/13 05:09 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
As you can see the music book in the Kawai picture rests on the surface of the VPC, instead of on the bottom of the music rest itself. An indication of it's functionality. If Kawai would pick up the challenge to design a music rest that has the same level of space and comfort as the rest of a cabinet piano that would be great. It would fly of the shelves with many happy es7 , mp6, mp10 and vpc owners as buyers. And make sure it's thoroughly tested with many different book sizes and thickness and sheets of paper. The angle is also very important for thick books and for readability . Too much upright is a problem, too far back makes it hard to read and grab to turn . So Kawai , why not just do it, instead of ignoring the valid request ?!

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#2041170 - 03/01/13 05:18 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The functionality (or dysfunctional-ity to reference theJourney's post) isn't an issue, correct?

James
x


Why not just put your fingers in your ears and go " LA LA LA LA LA"? It would be just as productive as denial by typing here.

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#2041172 - 03/01/13 05:32 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: JFP]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: JFP
So Kawai , why not just do it, instead of ignoring the valid request ?!


The impression one gets is that this has nothing to do with the user, his or her needs, requests from potential customers or market research.

It has to do with what Kawai can put into the unit cheaply and/or has laying around the plant in inventory (perhaps the same factor as the choice for RM3 instead of GF?).

I just realized that the same feedback was given to Kawai regarding the music desk for the MP10 in the past...

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...20for%20Ka.html

You know you have a product design issue when customers have to implement their own hillybilly kludges to your product right out of the box...

http://whitetrashrepairs.com/


Edited by theJourney (03/01/13 05:35 AM)

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#2041174 - 03/01/13 05:40 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Why not just put your fingers in your ears and go " LA LA LA LA LA"? It would be just as productive as denial by typing here.


To be honest, I'm still not entirely sure what your beef is with the VPC1's music rest - or with me for that matter. I've already explained that - for one reason or another - the project team decided to use the MP10's music rest. You may not particularly like this decision, however it's unlikely to change any time soon.

Now...

Is it the best music rest ever made? No, I accept that it isn't.
Is it the most visually appealing music rest ever made? No, I accept that it isn't.
Is it better than no music rest at? Yes, I certainly believe it is.

Don't forget that most controllers and even some high-end stage pianos omit the music rest entirely - you may recall a post discussing this topic just a few days ago.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041180 - 03/01/13 05:59 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Well, James, I have nothing against you, but I didn't send an email to Kawai and this thread is also not addressed to you...yet you are dominating the thread and posting with your Kawai "and the answer is no" hat on as if it is on the company intranet...

Since you admit that you cannot be of help to us, why not let others respond to the thread who might be able to address the question posed with their own ideas or proposed solutions.

No hard feelings, but this is supposed to be a user board, not a defensive manufacturer obfuscation board or a cheap piggyback alternative to Kawai setting up their own modern marketing and support architecture.

I appreciate your personal presence, and I am not alone, but it is important to recognize those instances when your are making a positive contribution towards the functioning of the board (and doing Kawai any good versus just digging a deeper hole) and those instances when it might be considered as counter-productive.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

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#2041182 - 03/01/13 06:10 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 304
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Wow, there's an authomatized rest done yet!


http://www.pageflip.com/setup_pagefliplite.html

And it "only" costs 199 bucks. Ok Kawai and the rest, how about just putting some moveable little pieces to hold pages if desired? Come on, it's just two more inches of wire and a couple of holes. Old pianos already had it.



Edited by mabraman (03/01/13 06:16 AM)
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2041184 - 03/01/13 06:15 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
jrcallan Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 358
Loc: Pennsylvania
TheJourney:

Your Kawai bashing is getting pretty tired. If you don't like it--don't buy it. Having bought it does not entitle you to endless tirades.

Pretty uninteresting stuff.

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#2041187 - 03/01/13 06:24 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1811
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: theJourney
...Since you admit that you cannot be of help to us, why not let others respond to the thread who might be able to address the question posed with their own ideas or proposed solutions.


If you're worried about a good music stand. Why not buy one? Put it behind the keyboard? Problem solved.

I'm looking forward to buying the VPC. I want a keyboard. Not a music stand.

Sometimes, people sound like they expect a keyboard to be a transformer. Transforms into this and that and...in the end they got a kid's toy.
No hillbilly solution. Easy solution. I want a music stand. I buy one.

Oh gee....I'm paying all this money and I want.... You want to whine!
_________________________
Ron
Ingrid, my beloved VPC : "Play it Sam....For old times sake...Play it for me...I'll sing it with you...Play me again, Sam."

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#2041190 - 03/01/13 06:28 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
theJourney, if you do not believe the music rest included with the VPC1 is suitable for your needs, I would suggest an alternative from a music stand company such as K&M.

e.g.



http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Music-stands/Conductor-stands/12342-ORCHESTRA-CONDUCTOR-STAND-black

I also tried Googling 'table music rest' and found the following websites:

http://www.musicstandsalone.com/tabletopsheetmusicstands
http://www.djmmusic.com/items.asp?cc=MusicStandTT

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2041193 - 03/01/13 06:44 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: rnaple]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Originally Posted By: theJourney
...Since you admit that you cannot be of help to us, why not let others respond to the thread who might be able to address the question posed with their own ideas or proposed solutions.


If you're worried about a good music stand. Why not buy one? Put it behind the keyboard? Problem solved.

I'm looking forward to buying the VPC. I want a keyboard. Not a music stand.

Sometimes, people sound like they expect a keyboard to be a transformer. Transforms into this and that and...in the end they got a kid's toy.
No hillbilly solution. Easy solution. I want a music stand. I buy one.

Oh gee....I'm paying all this money and I want.... You want to whine!


Thanks for your suggestion.

I expect the Kawai VPC-1 to fulfill the function it is advertised: " A virtual (software) controller from a real piano company". Real piano companies deliver usable music stands that hold paper properly and with industry standard distances to the back of the keys c.q. to the player's eyes.

Placing a stand behind the keyboard becomes even more of a problem than mounted on the back of the keyboard....

The distance from the back of the keys to the base of the music stand on my Kawai RX-2 is adjustable from negative to about 13 centimeters and on my Roland HP-307 is about 10 centimeters.

Placing as you suggested a (standing?) floor music stand (assume an orchestra director version for required width?) behind the VPC-1 would mean a distance of greater than 30 centimeters). That is three times the distance and completely off the scale for a piano and becomes unusable for someone with reading glasses, bifocals or even normal eyes. It is a good thing the newer, deeper keyboard is not on board or you might need binoculars to see the music! smile

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#2041197 - 03/01/13 06:49 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: jrcallan]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: jrcallan
TheJourney:

Your Kawai bashing is getting pretty tired. If you don't like it--don't buy it. Having bought it does not entitle you to endless tirades.

Pretty uninteresting stuff.


If you find the discussion uninteresting, there are any number of threads that might interest you. There is no need to type OT remarks or to be unkind. It certainly doesn't help with brainstorming on the most optimal solutions...

Asking for workable solutions seems to be quite far removed from Kawai bashing. I don't know about you, but I have spend more than $25.000, on Kawai products and am a loyal customer.

However, lately, I must admit that Kawai has not been making it easier for me to spend more money on Kawai.

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#2041199 - 03/01/13 06:52 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
Ok, I'm out ; didn't wat this to become a Kawai or James bashing issue. I'm sorry it got so far ! It was just a suggestion for a next generation Kawai DP or an aftermarket accessoire that would be a welcome addition to many people who are planning to actually use the stand a lot with different kinds of papers and book layouts . That's all. Hope at least it will make the requested feature list in the development team ! Over and out. Again sorry for turn in tone the thread became.

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#2041200 - 03/01/13 06:52 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I would suggest an alternative from a music stand company such as K&M.
...
I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks. I think what I need is something like you used to see in secretarial typing pools or like a microphone boom that I can adjust above the keyboard. Perhaps I need to put one together myself.

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#2041204 - 03/01/13 07:03 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1811
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: theJourney

I expect the Kawai VPC-1 to fulfill the function it is advertised: " A virtual (software) controller from a real piano company". Real piano companies deliver usable music stands that hold paper properly and with industry standard distances to the back of the keys c.q. to the player's eyes.


This is a controller keyboard from a real piano company. If you want a real piano and not a controller keyboard. Buy it!

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Placing a stand behind the keyboard becomes even more of a problem than mounted on the back of the keyboard....


Looks to me. If something else is not in the way. A music stand would put the music in about the same spot as the mounted stand on the keyboard?
Besides....I know the music stand companies make stands that will put the music forward from the base of the stand.

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Placing as you suggested a (standing?) floor music stand (assume an orchestra director version for required width?) behind the VPC-1 would mean a distance of greater than 30 centimeters). That is three times the distance and completely off the scale for a piano and becomes unusable for someone with reading glasses, bifocals or even normal eyes. It is a good thing the newer, deeper keyboard is not on board or you might need binoculars to see the music! smile


Lets give you the benefit of the doubt.
I wear reading glasses because my arms get tired holding a book at arm's length just to be able to read it. Now if I make sure the music is far enough away. I can get rid of my reading glasses!
Oh gee! I forgot! I already do that! Doh!


Now I need to criticise james for his suggested stand. After all....it won't hold all my music, plus my laptop, plus my monkey who hits sticks together for timing. My monkey is very important to me. Where will he stand? Oh James....you blew it!
_________________________
Ron
Ingrid, my beloved VPC : "Play it Sam....For old times sake...Play it for me...I'll sing it with you...Play me again, Sam."

Top
#2041205 - 03/01/13 07:05 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8402
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Thanks. I think what I need is something like you used to see in secretarial typing pools or like a microphone boom that I can adjust above the keyboard. Perhaps I need to put one together myself.


How about something like this, from the same company (K&M)?



http://products.k-m.de/us/Mic-stands/Accessories/115-2-SHEET-MUSIC-AND-DOCUMENT-HOLDER-black

Or this (www.musicstandsalone.com):



Or perhaps this (www.musicstandsalone.com):



Indeed, the same website even has a shot of a custom stand on an MP9500:



Quote:
"The stationary desk was adapted to fit on this electric piano since the original wire music racks are so small."


Ah, this one from Manhasset looks ideal:



I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2041207 - 03/01/13 07:12 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: Kawai James]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1811
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

How about something like this, from the same company (K&M)?
I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


But James....What about my monkey!!!!!??????
My monkey isn't going to be happy!!!!!????
It's all Kawai's fault!!!!!
_________________________
Ron
Ingrid, my beloved VPC : "Play it Sam....For old times sake...Play it for me...I'll sing it with you...Play me again, Sam."

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#2041208 - 03/01/13 07:13 AM Re: Solution for Music Desk on Kawai VPC-1 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

How about something like this, from the same company (K&M)?


I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


That, in an orchestral wide version, is exactly what the doctor ordered! Haven't seen any of these in stores before.

It should be able to also match the exact position of the RX-2 music stand that way.

Thank you!

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Hello + buying my first piano (long post)
by Ben_NZ
04/21/14 08:54 AM
Tunelab alternative partial settings?
by Beemer
04/21/14 04:52 AM
Noodling board
by Maarkr
04/20/14 10:20 PM
New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
by hsheck
04/20/14 10:17 PM
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
04/20/14 08:18 PM
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