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Joe, I had a similar experience. Tuned a beautiful Yamaha at a dealers showroom in Toronto a few weeks back in ET and the customer who played it after bought it on the spot. Must have thought my temperament was organic Stevia....or maybe the full moon that night..

Hi Emmery!

I'm sure your tuning helped seal the deal. I just thought it was interesting that this client appreciated the same things about this temperament that I did. It's very close to ET, but it does alter the resonance.

I don't want to presume, but maybe you might try tuning a piano you are familiar with in one-tenth CM just for laughs. I think you'll notice a difference in the character of the instrument... not just the slight changes in harmony.

The offsets I have, courtesy of Bill Bremmer, are:

A 0.00
A# 0.35
B -0.20
C 0.25
C# -0.30
D 0.15
D# 0.40
E -0.15
F 0.30
F# -0.25
G 0.20
G# -0.35

Edit: Notice the very slight differences from ET. No changes of even as much as one-half cent.

The VT's temperament octave is from A3 to A4.
M3s 13.3 to 14.3

In ET, M3s 13.7 - 13.7

Joe I have tuned some UT's in the past upon request....very rarely and not enough to devote precious time into verifying the original acoustic intent with all the meaningful tuning/musical intervals we use with ET. ET has a very linear arangement with beat rates which only require good anchor points to be established and then everything else fit in its place relative to it. Haphazard chart offsets referenced off of ET zeroed fundamentals produce haphazard this way and that way beat rates with everything else. If the piano has exactly the same characteristics of inharmonicity as the sample piano which had its offsets recorded (presuming that piano was tuned aurally), then the proper relationships of the temperaments intent can be replicated. Without this relationship (which does not exist in the real world) aural verification depends on following predicted beat rate references for ALL useable intervals. It also requires some explanation as to where priorities should be/adjustments made, if things do not perfectly work out. This happens with ET so I won't pretend it doesn't with UT's.

This aural verification is glaringly missing from UT's or too unstructured for someone to reasonably carry around in their head.

Unfortunately the spicier intervals of UT's also fall outside of the 10-12 bps range where we percieve souring....souring cannot be verified accurately by ear either.

I suppose with wolf notes an arguement can be made that there is no clean end on a dogs turd to pick it up by so I won't elaborate on that issue. A nicely tuned ET on a piano which is heavily played will turn into UT on its own with a little time, so why charge someone money to give them something other people pay money to get cleaned up? N'est–ce pas?

Emmery,

With advanced, multi-partial devices like the Verituner, the tempering is done in ET. Then, the offsets are applied.

If you re-examine the offsets, you will notice that there is an order to them when using the modified meantone temperaments. (Note the width of the 5ths using offsets in both the 1/9 CM and 1/10 CM) The custom calculation in ET for each individual piano, and then the same percentage of offset, or cents, should give repeatable results.

My observation of the 1/10 CM is that on the pianos I've used it on, the pianos sound warm and rich, but without sounding fat. Though I haven't' used it on that many pianos (yet), the results seem to be repeatable.

Again, my particular interest in UTs is to affect the character of the piano by using UTs that vary only minutely from ET, rather than dealing with correct harmony for specific pieces, composers, and eras.

Edit: Though I do want avoid selecting temperaments that are simply wrong for the type of music being played.

Edit: Though it does appear the by suggesting these various modified meantone temperaments, Bill has hit the nail squarely on the head. These various meantone temperaments seem to be quite flexible as to the types of music they are appropriate for. These, combined with others like the EBVT3, Neidhardt, Moscow EBPT, and several others are welcome additions to ET. I am glad to be able to offer them to my customers.

-Joe

Greetings,
I know of one store owner in a distant city, that has found the WT consoles or spinets will usually be the first one to sell from the long line on the floor. If he has a slow mover, he has it tuned in a WT and it is usually gone within a week or so. I had thought about writing it off to the universally sensed superiority of WT, but I think it is just a fluke, every time it happens.
However, ET's don't turn into the kind of WT that a tuner will create, they just continue getting farther from in tune from the moment the tuner leaves. Random frequencies do not a well-temperament make.

Joe,

There may well be a reason why the 1/10 CMT sounds "better" to you and is not your imagination. A few years ago, Jason Kanter discovered an element which he called "Beat Synchrony". It is the ratio of beating between the M3 and m3 of any Major triad.

In strict ET (regardless of stretch), that ratio is an odd amount, 1:7 for all Major triads. It is as if every chord played were fighting itself. In contrast, the 1/7 CMT has a perfect 2:1 ratio for each. A look at any of the Well Temperaments reveals more favorable and even ratios.

Although most of the Quasi-Equal Temperaments (QET) were a result of flawed logic when attempting true ET, many of them just sound better. This is the case with my own ET via Marpurg where all of the M3's sound identical to ET but the 4ths & 5ths are equal beating. It ends up being a cleaner, more harmonious sounding arrangement than true ET.

I'll be hosting a Master Class in tuning that temperament by ear at the upcoming PTG convention. The participants will actually tune the piano, not me. I'll also be giving a preview of it where I tune the piano and talk about how to do it electronically.

I had asked Jason Kanter for the Beat Synchrony data for the 1/9 and 1/10 CMT's specifically to see how it is affected. Hopefully we'll find out about that sometime soon.

Have a listen:

https://www.box.com/s/af88f16f9cea23c42e9c

major thirds range from 9.5 to 16.8 cents from a pure third. Remember that an ET third is 13.7 cents wide...

enjoy!

Ron Koval

Just a correction, "Beat Synchrony" was the term Robert Wendell came up with during email discussions with me and also Paul Bailey as we were using spreadsheets to create and analyze temperaments. I believe I was the first to point out and guess about the phenomenon of beat interactions between the M3/m3 in a triad... It's there in the pianotech archives somewhere! Jason got into it a bit later, if my memory is correct.

You are correct in a direct comparative analysis..but from the ears of an average joe client, my experiences have shown the opposite to be true. I had in fact been called to follow up on several UT tunings in which the customer was duped into thinking was ET...it was done by intentional substitution/promotion of the UT by a tech and intentional ommision of informing the client. In both cases the customers first question to me sitting down at the piano was...."does this sound out of tune or properly tuned to you"? I had talked with the tech in question and he told me that he attended a lecture where it was suggested to the students to simply substitute the UT for ET to help promote it. I told this tech that what he is doing is simply a gamble as far as the public is concerned and a direct shot in his own foot as far as other techs are concerned. If I am asked to assess a tuning in UT and I am not aware of it being UT...it will get the TWO BIG THUMBS DOWN and every colleague I know around these parts will likely do the same.

(Added) When marketing a new product/service on anything other than open disclosure of its merits (ie, blind substitution) and at the same charging money for something that it is entirely reasonable to assume is different from the norm....it is borderline unethical. it is a big red flag waving that this cannot sell itself on its own merits. Couple this with the fact that there are several notable high end techs who can be quoted off the internet to a customer as mentioning "ET is the hardest temperament to tune". Hard to argue that the tech didn't take a short cut with his services of a UT in this light.

Emmery you have repeatedly attacked the working practices of some people who tune UTs when discussing the UTs themselves. And although there can be no disputing what you claim, and I don't support the practice you are describing, it does not belong in this kind of thread, which is for discussing the temperaments.

The thread title is not "Which UT shall I tune for a jazz musician without telling him?"

Ed,
This is interesting. I have informed the piano store I have as a client your info re mild well tunings and slow movers. Thank you

Bill,
I hadn't though of beat synchrony. I simply assumed it was a combination of the way the various partials lined up and maybe subtle changes in the way the bridges/soundboard system is loaded.I'm sure that Jason Kanter's analysis will be revealing. Thanks again

Emmery,
Just curious... If a client requested you to tune in a UT, say EBVT3 or 1/10 CM, would you refuse? Even if it meant losing that client?

I am very glad to know about this, Ron! As far as I knew, "Beat Synchrony" was something Jason Kanter had come up with. You have to give Mr. Kanter credit, however on his amazing graphs, how he can put SO much information into one graph! The Beat synchrony idea, however, he had to put as an addendum.

As soon as I saw it, I thought that is well and good. That tells one little piece of the story. However, we all know that there is much more to music than Major triads, especially when Jazz is concerned!

That is one place where ET only enthusiasts will first assert their claims, as I have seen it often. Modern music, Jazz in particular, goes far beyond simply Major triads!

Therefore, in theory, all of that complexity seems to require ET, does it not? Who could argue with that except those among us who have many years of experience practicing something else?

I can't really explain how 1/9 Comma Meantone or the EBVT III actually works for Jazz much less how 1/7 Comma Meantone or virtually any other Well Temperament has. I just know it has and the artists liked it. I've even heard Blues and Avant-Garde artists "groove" on 1/4 Comma Meantone!

You have come up with some pretty neat looking graphs of your own in the past. Perhaps you might want to take a look at Beat Synchrony in more than just simple Major triads but minor triads and the kind of extensions actually found in Jazz among some of the very mild, nearly equal (but not quite) temperaments being discussed here.

When I finalized the EBVT with the EBVT III version, I figured I has "watered down" that idea to the ultimate dilution. Yet, I came up with an "Ultra Mild" WT later on, upon which you made a comment that you did not restrict yourself to half cent deviations.

All well and good. Anybody can keep dividing anything in half to infinity. I never really pursued things the way you, Paul Bailey or Jim Coleman did except with the Meantone idea. You can create virtually any gradation of Meantone temperament possible! (I know that Paul has his own favorite Meantone idea).

Joe seems to have liked the 1/10th Comma Meantone idea. It is really only a theoretical idea, one that Jean-Baptist Romieu proposed along with the 1/7, 1/8 and 1/9 ideas. I can't even do it on my ETD because it means that each 5th is narrowed by exactly 2.15 cents which means deviations from ET of multiples of exactly 0.15 cents. I can do 0.1 or 0.2 but not 0.15! Perhaps either one of those might have their own appealing properties?

It would be really interesting to find out what -2.15 cent 5ths does to both Major and minor triads and other possibilities. It could really turn out to be the coolest QET yet! Who knows?

In discussions I had with Owen Jorgensen, he agreed very much with the idea that we simply had to try these various ideas to find out which had merit and what those merits are.

Thanks for posting that, Ron. I just now saw it and am listening to it. It sounds like music to me.

Quote:
Joe seems to have liked the 1/10th Comma Meantone idea. It is really only a theoretical idea, one that Jean-Baptist Romieu proposed along with the 1/7, 1/8 and 1/9 ideas. I can't even do it on my ETD because it means that each 5th is narrowed by exactly 2.15 cents which means deviations from ET of multiples of exactly 0.15 cents. I can do 0.1 or 0.2 but not 0.15! Perhaps either one of those might have their own appealing properties?

Bill, Ive been thinking abut this. There has to be some sort of hack or some other way around this. If I remember correctly, you are an Accutuner user.

The increments seem to be 0.05, like you said. I wonder if you set an offset for 0.1 when it should be 0.15, if you could maybe tune the note so the lights spin very slightly in one direct. Then, maybe set an offset for 2.0 and try to get the lights spinning in the other direction at an equivalent rate. If you experiment a few times, you should be able to find the point where the lights spin at the same rate in different directions at 0.1 and 0.2.

Since you are a very experienced piano tuner, once this speed is found and you get the sense of it (which won't take long), you should easily be able to know and remember what that speed is.

After, you work with rhythm when setting beats anyhow. You know what 3 bps is and what 7 bps is. This is just visual rather that aural.

Edit: I don't know if what I wrote above made sense. I meant to keep moving a note around until you find the point where the lights spin in opposite directions at the same rate. Then memorize that rate.

-Joe

Just an update...

I used the 1/9 CM today. They loved it!
"It never sounded this good before!"
In fact, they even commented on how "warm and rich" the piano sounds now. (Petrof 5'3" 1994 baby grand piano)

I don't think they will ever go back to ET. They are interested in exploring other UTs as well. New converts!

Thanks Bill!
-Joe

Interesting topic.....peaked my interest. I am in the process of tuning my other piano with the 1/9....so far, it sounds great. Will post a few recordings when I am finished tuning it.

Is this 1/9 a slightly different form of ET, or is it a mild WT-UT?

Neither. It's actually a modified meantone temperament.

Edit: As was pointed out earlier in this thread, ET could be considered a form of meantone... 1/11 comma meantone.

Edit: There is a nice little article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament

Joe,

It is NOT a Modified Meantone Temperament. That is another class of temperaments entirely where the "wolf" 5th is divided among two or more 5ths rather than leaving just one untuned interval. It is all an attempt to mitigate some of the harsh side of the cycle of 5ths to make it more usable. This was done mostly with 1/4 and 1/5 Comma Meantone Temperaments.

Indeed, I used to tune the Rameau-Rousseau-Hall 18th Century Modified Meantone Temperament regularly back in 1991-1992. When I had the need for a Victorian style temperament in late 1992, there were not really any good aural instructions for one available, so I adapted the RRH MM temperament into what eventually became the EBVT III.

I have also seen the temperament that Peter Serkin likes called a "modified meantone" but it is not. It is the 1/7 comma meantone with one modification: there is a pure 5th between E & B. Therefore it is the 1/7 Comma Meantone, modified (or, the 1/7 CMT with one pure 5th, as I prefer to call it). In Jorgensen's first publication, there is a 1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament with two pure 5ths inserted.

For anyone who has not yet understood it, a "Meantone" Temperament is one where all 5ths are tempered alike and by the same amount. The fraction from which the temperament gets its name is whatever fraction of the Syntonic Comma (which has a value of 21.5) is chosen. All 5ths are narrowed by that amount. Therefore, the classic 1/4 Comma Meantone Temperament has 5ths that are each narrowed by 5.37 cents.

Narrowing 5ths by that much means that Major thirds (M3) become pure. Naturally, only 8 of them can be that way and it leaves the remainder painfully wide and unusable. It also leaves one 5th which cannot be reconciled extremely wide and dissonant.

If, on the other hand, you divide 21.5 by 11, you end up with virtually 2 cent narrow 5ths and that is the same as ET. The 1/7 CMT lies about mid way between 1/4 and 1/11.

The 1/9 CMT is a very mild one that has M3's that sound more or less like those of very mild WT's but it is not a WT. There are different rules for constructing a WT and no Meantone temperament, including 1/11th satisfies all of them.

Using the Meantone idea is simply another way to divide the scale based upon an entirely different concept from WT. It is possible (and very easy to program an ETD to do so), tune virtually any gradation of meantone conceivable. One does not have to limit oneself to fractions such as 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, 1/8, 1/9, 1/10 and 1/11.

The 1/9 Comma Meantone figures I published are really rounded off figures for 1/9 of 21.5. (21.5 divided by 9 is 2.38). It is really a 2.4 cent narrow 5ths Meantone, if you will. It may be easier to understand now that since ET has 2.0 cent narrow 5ths, 2.4 cent narrow 5ths are only slightly narrower, well within the margin of error that an aural tuner may create when tuning ET until other intervals are used as checks to correct such a small error.

If, for instance, someone tuned a reasonably perfect ET but accidentally made one random 5th 2.4 cents narrow, probably no one would really notice. However, as I have often pointed out what happens when there is an error that repeats itself over and over, there is a cumulative effect. Therefore, when ALL 5ths are narrowed by that extra seemingly small and insignificant amount, there is definitely an effect created. It is a very appealing one to many people. It puts just enough key color in the temperament to satisfy that desire but avoids the threshold of harshness that many people have.

It is virtually impossible to tune it accurately by ear. If one accepts that the calculated program of an ETD for ET is correct, then simply apply the 1/9 CMT figures to that and you have it.

Therefore, Grandpianoman, you can use the Verituner calculated program for either of your instruments and apply those figures OR, you can use Ari Isaacs' ET program for your M&H RBB and apply it to those figures. When I come again to your house in May, I plan to do an ET tuning of both of your instruments to which you can apply any temperament figures you desire.

Andy, the figures for the 1/9 CMT are on the Temperament Page 9 of your ETD. You may call me and ask me how to apply that to an FAC program if you need to.

I see. Thank you Bill for the clarification (and education).


If I could please impose to ask a question:
I've been thinking about trying a temperament between the 1/9th and the 1/10 CM. If I did a 1/9.5 CM, would the correct terminology be 2/19 CM?

Thanks,
-Joe

Thanks for the info Bill and Joe. That would be great Bill....Ari's was the first time I tried to 'save' a live tuning on the Verituner...I don't think I did it correctly...as I went to tune it, it was not sounding right.

I just finished earlier this evening, the 1/9 Comma Meantone using your 12 offsets from this posting, into the Verituner, using the "clean" setting for smaller grands.

Nice sounding temperament. What you are hearing is a 1930 Weber "FR" 6ft Duo-Art Grand Piano. The Duo-Art has been totally rebuilt. The piano has Ari's Bass Strings, (about 7 years old now), a new set of his Candenza "S" hammers inc. new shanks, (not voiced yet), and a complete new Tokiwa action. The solid strings are at least 40 years old.

It also has the "Touchrail" from www.pitchlock.com This Weber really does a superb job with the accents, expression. The Touchrail has improved all of that, including the repetition. The Duo-Art cannot distinguish the downweight etc, so to have every key at exactly 52 grams, thanks in part to the Touchrail, is a major benefit.

One thing I should mention, even though the piano is 6ft long, the Duo-Art takes up about 7-8 inches, so the actual length of the piano is about 48 inches...a short piano!

These are about the closest 1920 'jazz' Fox-Trot rolls I could find on short notice....most of the rolls are still in boxes downstairs. I am sure I have more.

"Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" played by Paulene Alpert, 1931 https://www.box.com/s/1izm2uslrpar85gzb8ma

"Steppin' In Society" Played by Edythe Baker, 1925 https://www.box.com/s/q6l1fzqgk9rivw7bu26t