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Ok, I scratched around and found something about what you are speaking about Isaac.

The person who wrote it on the PW forum, sometime in 2006, went by the name of GR8Music. Did you go by this name in 2006, Isaac?

Anyway, here is something to consider on the subject of unison tuning,

"Before we get too far into the discussion, it is important to establish some basic ground-rules/assumptions. This topic really only applies to high-level, concert type situations; which is probably 95% of the work that I do.

The standard is "as beatless as possible" for all tuning situations. A unison is never allowed to actually beat: this would clearly be out-of-tune. This is really important to keep in mind. Unisons are very difficult for people to learn how to master, but there is actually a HUGE range in unison qualities: the difference between dead-on and out-of-tune (i.e., the oscillations between constructive and destructive interference). Specifically, I am talking about controlling and molding this grey area to achieve certain results.

Just as a REMINDER to anyone that may jump to conclusions: none of these unisons actually sound “out-of-tune.” When this is done correctly, the unisons must always be “pulled back in to a dead unions during the sustain.” This occurs through a phenomenon known as string coupling.

Most technicians try to achieve a "dead union," BUT this takes a tremendous amount of time to do and it is EXTREMLY difficult to actually accomplish; I would say that probably 98% of tunings never really make it to this point. Usually what happens is that this is the goal, but the techs usually get somewhere in-between and really stop "listening."

I don’t really have any real names for these unions, so I just talk about them based on where I learned the technique/approach: American-unison (attack), Japanese-unison (decay), and European-unison (color).

I view Unison styles primarily as a voicing issue. By changing the way that I set the unisons [and octaves], I can completely change the way that the piano presents its sound. YES, naturally, the piano also needs to be well voiced; the voicing that I am talking about is a secondary issue.

The interesting part is that if you are using a European-unison or a Japanese-union, you can also make small corrections to the temperament (issues that were difficult to hide elsewhere). I personally don’t care so much about small errors in the temperament, as Bill alluded to, they will always be there (this is a mathematical fact). My focus is on octaves. It bother me when a tuner have done an inconsistent job with octaves; octaves really need to at least appear that they are consistent (i.e., the amount of stretch or “roll” of the octave).

The American-Unison (DOA: “dead on attack”)
Even though this approach doesn’t not give the technician the extra flexibility, it is a really powerful when it is done correctly. This union has a really nice audible “crack” right at the attack. In fact if you look at the sound envelope (on a computer), you can see that a nice peak forms which actually makes the attack much louder. This effect helps to add to the percussive effect of the piano’s sound. It is especially suited well for situations like concerto work, where attack is almost always more important than sustain.

The Japanese-Unison (shaping the sound envelope: decay)
Actually, I learned this through my experience with a Kawai technician in Japan. This approach is really all about shaping a nice decay from the tone (this is usually referred to as sustain). In this approach the center and the right string are typically tuned “DOA” and the left string is tuned ever so slightly sharp to achieve a nice “tonal push.” This creates a beautiful singing tone. By using the left sting to make the adjustment, you can achieve a greater range in color once the left pedal is pressed.

The European-Unison (range in color)
This is actually my favorite kind of unions. This union essentially has a three slightly different centers (that all get pulled to a DOA by the sustain). What is very interesting about this approach is that the way in which the partials interact with each other: they dramatically change based on the volume and the harmony; this gives the greatest range of color and shape of the tone. The way that this is typically applied in Vienna is that the right string is set first, then the center (“with a nice sound:” which means slight sharp), then the left string (which is set by the center string and is also set “with a nice sound”).
"

Something to chew on?!?

Regards,

Hi Mark thank you ! you find a very nice piece of analysis.
I did not new how to begin the thread !

I did not go as far and indeed I have colleagues who tune the "European unison" which is very lively.

I like the "crack" heard with the DOA of American unison, the tuner (is he on the forum yet? was not me !) have a good analytic ear !

If done with an European voiced German piano it will be too much, as the attack is yet very lively usually. On, for instance a NY Steinway, due to the smoothness of the crown, it is possible and it reinforce the attack, I tend to believe that the tone is evolving less with different dynamics then as it is "straightened" IT may be very interesting to record and see how it evolves and stabilize.



For the Kawai style, I am not sure it is used on other brands I have a Japanese trained colleague who uses it, and it tones differently from other Japanese colleagues I know (he learned that in Japan , with Shigeru training)

I for one use purposely an unison that is obtained naturally when using a strip mute , and that Alfredo explained to me. I was doing so without really noticing, and probably slightly differently.

The coupling is searched between external strings while the center one is more responsive for pitch.
Alfredo call it "smiling unison as the outer string is not allowed to be lower than the center one. That makes a tone that have a tendency to sound high more than low.

I dont purposely tune the outer string higher it is the natural result of the tensioning. To help the stability, when going up the left string of the next note is tuned (to the center one) before the right string of the note below. That canvas is very helpful to prevent drop.

Stability in time is extreme, I find, I see that as if the outer strings are "ruling" the center, so they are not disturbed as easily than with other configurations (the "3 centers" configuration may be good also for stability, but a little less secure probably.

Our best tuner in the concert service was always using one string to open the tone and energize the highest partials he had a tone that was very good for concertos for instance, but did not use a similar pattern at each note.

I like the fact that he talk of the envelope and the phase evolution in tome. And also that he insist that no beat may be audible (I heard that often that modifying the "perfect" unison would mean making a beat)

I also believe that the American unison implies a different way of listening, I can obtain a non beating unison that produce a strong immediate tone without any "crack" and another with that kind of abrupt attack, so there may be something there in the way the note is listened, probably.

Fazioli tuners use the final torque manipulation of the pin to tune what they say to me the duplex scale ring, I am not sure it is what we hear mostly but it may well be part of the final tone indeed.

Good idea is to take some time and record the different styles on a good piano, then graph.

I hope we will have more ideas there ...

Greetings
and thank you again to find this (I told you, nothing really interesting on that forum )

When I am on unisons, it is like if I were voicing the piano. Like with real voicing (needling etc.), unisons allow to enrich, enlarge, strengthen, round and worm single tones up, determining the amount, the presence and duration of partial sounds. We well know that tones and single partials, all together, determine the sound's nature, its character, in a way they represent any instrument's dowry.

Personally, I would respect any individual preference, as long as it really is The preference, not the non-educated or easy way to accomplish the task. For what I remember, dead on unison is the first type of unison I managed to replicate regularly. The attack is strong, the tone seems powerful and glued out but it soon crashes in itself, it seems to implode, like falling all at once inside the piano, causing a drastic lowering of the tone's volume, thinning its body and shortening the sustain.

For some years I was happy with those unisons, until I met my second tutor. He made me notice all the above and really opened my mind and ears, telling me about what I was not able to hear yet, partial sounds, how they actually define the tone color and its harmoniousness.

But, right now, let me ask: what is the core of this thread meant to be?

Regards, a.c.
.

Alfredo, thank you for chiming in.

I suppose that the core of the thread is all about unison tuning. It's purpose, possibilities and the actual every day application for tuners in tuning them.

I have read little about the different kinds of unisons and the different ways of tuning the unison. So, in making it a thread I am hoping that there might be further contributions on it?

The matter of the different ways to tune unisons in my original thread post, is really new to me and I am hoping to understand it better.

Maybe, we can discuss on another thread, the techniques and understanding about the the different piano hammer shapes, how to file them and the purpose and function of them too?

Regards,

Hi Mark, thanks for starting this interesting thread.

I for one would like to hear a simple audio example of the three different types of unisons from the same piano, and preferably the same note.

The recording could go something like:
A4 - Dead-On unison, played with a variety of velocities from soft to loud.
cut
A4 - 'Japanese' unison, played with a variety of velocities.
cut
A4 - 'European' unison, played with a variety of velocities.

Doesn't have to be recorded all that fancy, just one mic and basic free audio software (Audacity) to make the editing cuts so that we can listen to them one after the other.

Of course, one needs to know HOW to tune these various unisons. I have all the equipment mentioned above and access to a piano, but I only know dead-on unisons.

Maybe one of our 'international'/'worldly unison' techs will be able to put up a simple example and let the forums be the judge.

If this is impossible, a link to a YouTube classical performance where you know beyond a doubt which kind of unisons were tuned for that artist and particular recording session, would suffice.

Thanks again for the thread!
-Erich

Hello Erich,

Thanks, as I said in an earlier post, this type of unison tuning is new to me, but I do find this info very interesting and helpful.

Another post by GR8Music from the 2006,

"Unison work all must be done by ear (except for maybe DOA; an ETD can really help through this process). Most tuners feel kind of funny when the unions are so clean. “Dead” unions have kind of an eerie effect (complete stillness), but it is really nice when it is done perfectly. This is the one that is really hard to get, simply because there is absolutely no room for error.

However, I believe that you need to use an ETD so that you can learn what these different styles and sounds “feel like” in each register. [The only ETD that I would recommend is the Verituner]. To do a really nice DOA, it can sometimes take +10 minutes. Once you really have it, if you play the note staccato at mp, you can really hear the note “speak.” This is the signature of a great DOA. Compare this to an “in-tune” neighbor note and you should see a huge difference.

For the other styles, you need to use the ETD to practice setting the strings at different distances. I think that the Verituner usually has .1 cent intervals. Play with this and see how far you can go (i.e., where are the limitations in each register). If you are having any problems hearing things, make a recording and look at how the sound envelope changes on the computer. Being able to see this can really help sometimes! Once you have gained control over this skill, then you can begin to really do some nice things by listening to the “amount” that is used in each note to create overall consistency.

I think that technicians/pianists rarely ever hear DOAs. I want to point out again that this is so tremendously difficult! How long does it last? This is naturally the quickest to go out. Something like the European unison will go out in the same amount of time, but it will not be as noticeable for a much longer time.

The main difference here is really in the approach. For example: the end result will be different depending on which string you start with. If you start with the center string, you typically will get two side strings that are every so slightly higher. If you start with either the left or the right string and tune across, you essentially get three separate centers. This is what happens naturally if you are tuning for a nice, beautiful, non-beating union.

When we tune, we are typically listing to the tone of the piano (i.e., we are listing for beats). However, as we get closer to the DOA, we need to begin listing more to the sound of the attack. This is especially true in the middle register where you would need to wait a very long time to even confirm a beat.

For all practical purposes, what most technicians call “dead on, sweet spot, or clean” is actually the realm in which I am talking about. Once you have learned what to listen for, this realm is actually HUGE, it is not tiny at all (not to confuse you, but tiny difference also make a HUGE difference).

ChickGrand, this is just one of many tools that we can choose to use as technicians. The objective is to use this realm to our advantage by learning how to control it. We are not doing anything that would sound “out-of-tune.”

Let me point out that DOA is a “lifeless” union. Once we achieve this point, we get a bigger attack because we have all three strings moving in a similar way . . . we have a very efficient transfer of energy to the board. This gives a very pronounced attack to the tone. As we slightly shift one ore more of the strings (we are not actually creating a full oscillation of constructive and destructive interference = one beat), but we are able to control where the constructive interference “lines-up” and creates a slightly louder sound. Essentially, we can displace this from the attack and have things line up in the decay section of the sound envelope. This makes for a nice “tonal push” or “singing tone.”

Maybe we should take a moment to reset the focus: we are not really talking about whether it is a good idea to tune unisons DOA or slightly different to get a desired effect. Technicians tend to tune non-DOAs on a daily basis without knowing about it and without being able to control it.

It is an unfortunate reality that real DOAs are tremendously difficult to tune. I have not personally been involved in any studies on this exact topic, but I would say that even the greatest tuners under ideal situations fail to set “real” DOAs. This is especially true if tuners are not paying attention to how the sound of the attack changes as you near the DOA, this is a very important clue!

I think that most good tuners fail to come within a 0.3 cent spread [in the midrange], even under ideal situations. Remember: a DOA is not a “sweet spot;” there is a tiny bit of flexibility to slow down other partials that might not match up properly, but a DOA is pretty much a fixed location. It is usually with +/- 0.04 cents. If you have access to a piano that is not loaded with false beats, this is much easier.

If you have any questions as to whether or you do this on a regular basis, take a piece of monitoring equipment (something that can measure in 0.01 cent intervals) and test yourself out! Most tuners are very surprised at what they find out."

Schwedischer Tanz in A minor

This is from a local TV cultural show.

Is this Japan style, US style or Europe style?

Hello, one thing surprize me is that no mention is clearly done on the relation between energy sensation and kind of unison .

Seems to me like if GR8 have analyzed other kind of unisons but trying to analyse them in the eye of an edt, hence what I would call an error of interpretation.

I had to try to check with a spectrum anaysis the level of mistuning in time, but to me the coupling in phase of the 2 outer strings is the most stable structure we can attain. Simply because in my view it "phase lock" so the strings will tend to go back to the path of less resistance.

There are good remarks in the original thread, from Cury, and others. We could try to write there, rejuvenating a6 years old thread , as the information is possibly always valid today.

Here is something I find written and it seem to concur to what my impression is :

Gr8--I understand your point about that small area being "huge". My own experience is that there *is* some latitude in that beatless range, even while the point I want to park it seems like a pinpoint. I've assumed that that "sweet spot" is "dead-on" but that may not actually be the case. (It'd be interesting to be able to graphically see the waves of all three wires independently. I have quite advanced software for analyzing sound, but I'm not sure how to go about isolating the waves on the display). It may actually be that the point I perceive as pure and most powerful and "sweet" may actually be phase-offset by an amount I can't measure with anything I have other than my ears telling me "there". I *do* understand that "dead-on" in some respects may seem "lifeless". Just once I tuned with the "PTG exam" equal as my basis and took great pains and many hours to accomplish it, tuning and retuning every single string many times and carefully managing tension shifts that occur during tuning to arrive at a final precise tuning. It *was* amazingly clean. But a day or two of playing lots of various types of music convinced me it was also devoid of much tonal color or excitement. Which is what led me to explore temperaments, which ultimately led me to Bremmer's EBVT, which has become my favorite. I concluded from that experiment with a very precise equal that purist-possible (as if it were that simple!) seems to rob a little from any impression of power and certainly robs a lot of "key color". I would think that analogous to "dead-on" unisons.

I for one trained to listen/feel the tone energy level to get the closest "dead on" unison, then I opened it to my liking.

It is untrue to say that it takes so many years to learn to deal with unisons projection and tone building.
If correctly explained and demonstrated it may take a few years, I'd say between 2 to 5, but of course only with adequate training.

More difficult is to get a feel for the global reaction of the bridge/soundboard/plate/case under new tension.

And also to learn to feel thru the lever the vibes of the unison and the torque of the pin (particularly because some pinblocks and some pins are more "mushy" than others and you have to be confident without having full sensations. There the energy parsed from the wire and felt in the playing finger can help.

I sometime can tell that all is set to the optimum only by listening to tone and feeling it in fingers. (but indeed it is more secure to use the standard up/down test on the handle of the lever to check for the relation between torque and string tension)

The pin "straightness helps a lot to purify the tone if that is what you are after. This can be clearly audible I show that yet to colleagues : at the same time the tuning pin is firmer, very difficult to move any direction, and at the same time the tone is more strong and more pure.

Generally speaking all concert tuners want to obtain that kind of pin setting, which is a part of the unison.


I tend to consider that a good "dead on" is not strictly a pitch question but the accommodation of the 3 strings so the attack produced is the strongest, be it at the expense of the high of the spectra.

Then the more you accommodate partials at a higher level the more the tone is ringing and sounding clear, but at the same time, may be due to difference in length of the 3 strings there is a phase difference which obligatorily installed at the lower partial level.

I had also instructions as 2 strings may sound as one ; with 2 strings it is possible but by evidence 2 cannot sound like one, the comportment is different.

Then "3 strings may sound like one" is also a very limited point of view (oversimplified). The 3 strings gives us the possibility to have fun at our job, way more than it is envisaged most often.

I am confident that many technicians there have a evolved natural tendency to find synthesized rules and explanations,(as GR88) that is why something new (aside or not from G. Weinreich) may get out of that thread.

Sorry I find some reference to energy :

Really what we are talking about in terms of unisons is how effectively the piano is allowed to transfer the energy from the strings to the soundboard. In a DOA, all three strings are moving the soundboard in a similar direction from the beginning to create a bigger “attack.” It dissipates its energy more quickly and creates a louder initial sound.

The timing of a “decay unison” (two DOA strings and the third to pull out a nice decay) depends on the piano. The interaction of the partials really makes a big difference. But it is usually as close to the attack as possible without every creating a “beat.” Just a guess, but maybe something like a metronome setting of 80? Another way of thinking about this is that it is approximately 0.1-0.2 cents in the middle register.

I did not heard that on a decent speaker, but the piano is not well tuned nor voiced.

Unisons have some largeness, or swell however.

As I said Japanese unison can mean that one of the external strings is used to regulate the lenght of sustain, or tone color, but to me that structure tend relatively easily to some moaning.

What was shown to me but a high level Japanese concert tuner is to get the same unison "size" from right to middle, and for left to middle.

Then the 2 external strings are coupling if well done.If the tones die too quickly, I manipulate again the tone of the 2 doublets so to build a note that pleases me. I see that as a construction with 2 elements that are in equilibrium , the 2 outer strings being as the lever used to walk on a tight rope, they provide stability.

I was very frustated before learning how to build a focused tone purposely, as at that time I did not knew how to feel the pin orientation to the bottom, I could feel that there was some grip in the block, but with no real knowledge of the level of torque. I just had noticed a tendency for all strings to lower a hair, very easily seen with an EDT.

Btw a colleague I showed the slow pull manipulation passed his tuning exam lately, he told me that on a 88 notes tuning, the examiner get angry because he could have only ONE string moved, he banged more and more and the score was 100%. I suspect that the examiner was upset, as in the school the students dont learn how to set the pins definitively nor they have consequent explanations on what happens. Some of the teatchers there did not work at concert level enough to be obliged to have those techniques.


Well, I am OT there, but :

Once the bottom of the pin is set and the pin is "charged" by the wire tension, the very last coupling between partials, cleaning the top of the spectra, can be done without further pin turning. I dont understand why really but there is a very small range of regulation where the tone stay put, while the only thing that changed is the stress of the upper part of the pin, I suppose.

I think of tone as having to be "natural" so eventually striking the key with adequate force will make the tone jump in the wanted justness (if not, the pin have to be moved)

May be I am plain wrong on that but I find incredible the way unisons can stay put. As if the tone find a path where it is the less distorted, the tuner having only to put it in the good direction.

Could you please try to measure the length of 2 external strings in some unisons in your piano ?

for instance at A49, a 1 mm difference from 400 mm length will change the tension 0,4 KG and the iH constant changes from 0,697 to 0,704. Certainly enough to allow some room in the dead on pitch concept, particularly when many brands purposely allow for that length difference in the same unison.
Greetings

Hi Isaac, I was writing this reply while you were posting yours. I'm not surprised we have touched similar issues. I would try to simplify the whole issue and talk about... Oh, let's make it another post! Un caro saluto, a.

- . - . - . -

Interesting posting, Mark. At the end of that reading I cannot really fix one steady idea as regard to what this colleague's position is, perhaps due to having to use words in order to convey a complex reality. Nevertheless, I do not mind the way the unison scenery is described in general.

Possibly, I would avoid attempting to a strict unison denomination, American, European etc., in my view there are so many schools around the world and many "ways" to put what is taught into practice.

Also, I don't understand why in the first paragraph he/she says "eerie effect"; an then he/she introduces the idea of doing it "perfectly" and the fact that "there is absolutely no room for error.". There, I would think that Dead On Attack (DOA) might correspond to my idea of a Dead On unison. But in the 2nd last paragraph you read:

..."Remember: a DOA is not a “sweet spot” there is a tiny bit of flexibility to slow down other partials that might not match up properly, but a DOA is pretty much a fixed location."...

In any case, leave phrasing aside, he/she writes what for me could do as a good synthesis:

..."For all practical purposes, what most technicians call “dead on, sweet spot, or clean” is actually the realm in which I am talking about. Once you have learned what to listen for, this realm is actually HUGE, it is not tiny at all (not to confuse you, but tiny difference also make a HUGE difference)."...

What is in between brackets is gold. Then our colleague describes a "huge realm", and I understand he refers to what I have called the Harmonic Site, i.e. an area where we can play with partial sounds and decide how to shape the tone, its body, attack and sustain. This, I think, is the fundamental peace of information (about unison) we can share.

At the moment, it would take me too long to go through all of that post although, if he/she was willing to reply, I would be happy to do it. Generally speaking I can say that, in my view, one has to master string/pin setting technique first; without that, ETD's take you nowhere; and if you have that technique, you will also have had enough time to develop hearing sensitivity as to not need an ETD (for that porpoise). It does not work the other way around either, meaning that yes, you can use an ETD and perhaps develop good pin control, but that does not automatically help you to develop hearing sensitivity.

3rd last paragraph (also end of the analysis, for the time being): ..."It is an unfortunate reality that real DOAs are tremendously difficult to tune. I have not personally been involved in any studies on this exact topic, but I would say that even the greatest tuners under ideal situations fail to set “real” DOAs. This is especially true if tuners are not paying attention to how the sound of the attack changes as you near the DOA, this is a very important clue!"...

Well, if "even the greatest tuners...fail...", you understand that there is no need to define one original geographical area for one specific type of unison. All aural tuners in this world could be able to manage that. Then, as mentioned, it depends on various circumstances. Telling you about my own experience, I would not say that unison control is "tremendously difficult"; it simply requires time, patience and dedication. It took me about three years to refine my wrist and five years to distinguish a good number of partials but, let me say to young aspirants, beats and partials aural control is a rousing, fascinating and very rewarding experience.

Regards, a.c.

I second that. I'll believe it when I hear it.

Kees

should be added each string plucked separately in the same order, the others being muted (or not ?)

..."...I'll believe it..."...

Hi Kees,

You say you do not believe... what? That, on the same piano, different unisons can be tuned? That unisons can actually be managed in many ways and in absolutely consistent terms? Or?

Regards, a.c.

GR88 say also something VERY important :

unison tuning allow to correct temperament mistakes or unevenness.

before someone take the option, I declare you will have 2:1 3:1 4:1 unisons plus variants where the different types are mixed (and that will be part of trainings).

..."before someone take the option, I declare you will have 2:1 3:1 4:1 unisons plus variants where the different types are mixed (and that will be part of trainings)."...

AhAh. That is not fair! I wanted to get there first!

OK, "before someone take the option", I ask: why not 5:1? Because...?

..."before someone take the option, I declare you will have 2:1 3:1 4:1 unisons plus variants where the different types are mixed (and that will be part of trainings)."...

AhAh, That's not fair! I wanted to get there first!

OK, "before someone take the option", I ask: Why not 5:1? Because...?

Edit 2: sorry for doubling this post, no way I could delete it.

OK OK (dont push me I have perfect pitch ya know !)

I take 6:1 then !

logically that should be 1:6 1:5 1:4 etc... !

AhAh, ...6:1 - 1:6... which string were we tuning?

Buona Domenica, a.