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Hi Cleff:

Thanks for the explanation. I think I've got it.

Enjoy your "soaking," and please post what you've learned so far, every so often. We can all use (well, maybe just me) a refresher course. I have been soaking for about 3 weeks, but I fear that I will forget a lot before my class starts in Feb. So I am going to have to "resoak" around mid-January. I will be an absolute prune.

My best to you...really!!
Kathleen

Which would you suggest as I can only affford one

The Cambridge Companion to Chopin edited by James Samson
or
Jeremey Siepmann - Audio book about Chopin's Life

Thanks

Quite a while back I joked that since some of us have an almost religious devotion to Chopin, they might wish to start a religion for the sake of the tax benefits. Well, that hasn’t happened, but I did attend the Church of Beethoven this past Sunday morning here in Albuquerque. It was founded by a cellist from the NMSO as an uplifting experience that could be enjoyed by everyone and would showcase local musicians and poets. The program included a Barber mini-opera and a Dvořák quartet, and was really wonderful. The place was packed. But as so often happens with classical concerts, the audience was on the elderly side-- though the musicians were in their 20s and 30s.

Back to the portraits: I did see one attempt at a picture of Chopin as a child, but it’s only an artist’s conception. It’s in a fairly worthless book by Victor Seroff (I think). It shows about an 8-year-old kid playing for an audience, with his little legs dangling from his chair. I remember it because he looks exactly like my husband at that age.

I like the “grotty” youthful portrait despite the rather disproportionate features. I think it says something worthwhile about its subject, who appears to be staring into forever, seeing what the rest of us can’t. The quality of the watercolor, technically, seems good to me. A good B&W copy can be found in Ates Orga’s bio. The caption says “Anonymous, c. 1830.”

I’ve always been especially fond of Maria’s portrait of her fiancé. (Have you seen any of her other work? It’s extraordinary. Some can be found in Chopin In His Own Land.) I’m having the feeling that the universe has taken a sudden jump sideways, though, because I could have sworn she painted his eyes blue, but on the site that Jeff linked us to they’re brown. I went to the only other color copy I could find, on the cover of Tad Szulc’s bio, and they’re brown there too! Eek! I remember referring to this portrait when we were discussing his eye color, and writing something like, “They’re blue in Maria’s painting. End of story.” For heaven’s sake, I’ve seen the original! Are the copies wrong, or my memory??

About the death mask, I agree, Joe, that his face was not at its best after all it had been through and then getting squished by plaster, but still, it looks to me like Clésinger squared the chin and strangely enough, lengthened the nose (vertically) a bit, and generally made the face a bit more chiseled and handsome. I don’t mind; the effect is gorgeous, especially the slight smile that makes it look like the subject is in the midst of some delicious dream. I was surprised to read the quote from Niecks, on the site Jeff sent us to, that said Chopin’s friends were not happy with the bust-- unless they meant some other bust.

(I was cleaning out my closet a couple days ago and thinking again how freakin’ weird it is to have a dead man’s head in a box next to one’s shoes.)

I think the sitting portrait probably gives us a pretty good idea of the overall appearance of the man, but if I remember correctly, it was not done during his lifetime. There are odd angles to the chair arms and the man’s hips, but otherwise it’s excellent.

I hadn’t seen the portrait ChopinAddict loves before. It’s a good effort, isn’t it? The eyes are too large, and again, the nose is too long. In actuality his nose was not all that long top to bottom-- there was a lot of space between his nose and mouth-- it was more just horizontally prominent.

Elene

"Which would you suggest as I can only afford one: The Cambridge Companion to Chopin edited by James Samson or Jeremey Siepmann - Audio book about Chopin's Life"

Well, Kathleen, I can't say which would suit you better, but I can tell you which one I got: The Cambridge Companion, by Sampson, ed. I haven't read it through yet, but I've glanced through, and I can tell you that (1) it's a collection of essays by Chopin scholars, published by a university press. The writing does not appear to be intended for a strictly technical audience; an intelligent person would be able to make sense of it. (2) You don't need a microscope to read the print; both the text and musical examples are crisply printed and stand out well on the white paper. The serif typeface looks like about 9-pt. The glued (not sewn) binding seems sturdy; the paper is nearly opaque yet flexible, so the volume is easy to handle. It is about 7" x 9.75", with margins sufficient for making notes. (3) Fairly extensive footnotes are collected at the end of the book, an arrangement which has its downside, but which leaves the text uncluttered. The index is not extensive, but it is supported by a Chopin discography and a chronology of his works. The latter is a best effort based on the sketchy information available. Taken together, it is quite useful, and more so because there is a chronology of significant dates of his life and times, and b&w reproductions of his image; both at the front of the volume. The bibliography is modest. (4) It lists at about $34 from Barnes, including shipping but not tax or discounts. Publication date is 1992; date on the soft-cover reprint is 2004. If it was updated for this printing, it's not mentioned. (5) Skimming the chapter titles, there are sections on: the history of the public piano concert; the nocturne; the etudes; tonal architecture; the extended musical forms and the smaller forms (this chapter is by our own Jeff Kallberg);dance; sonatas; Chopin in performance; Polish reaction to Chopin in his own time; Victorian attitudes; and his influence up to 1990 (appx.).

My impression is that it's a useful book which is a pretty good amount of information, from different viewpoints, and not a bad deal for the money. ISBN-13 is: 9780521477529.

It's some other bust. Clesinger did another one, a big one, with naked shoulders and his eyes open. It's detestable. He looks vacuous and a bit porky.

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CA

The instructions to us contributors, from the then editor of Cambridge University Press, was "to write so that what you say can be understood by a piano teacher in Leeds." I always imagined the Leeds piano teacher as pretty smart . . .

The Siepmann offers its own pleasures; my guess is you'd enjoy whichever one you purchase.

Jeff

My dear Cleff:

You deserve a huge hug for such a detailed and so useful description of the Sampson book. I truly appreciate all the work you put in just typing it all. And I appreciate and value your recommendation.

Jeff: Gosh, now I am wondering if I am as smart as a Leeds piano teacher. If you are one of the contributors, I know it will be a great addition to my library. I listened to Siepmann's Beethoven and thought it wonderful.

Thank you all so much.
Kathleen

It's Samson, not Sampson.

Is there supposed to be something particular about intelligence or lack of same in people from Leeds?

Elene

It's on my wish list now! Thanks for the information!

"It's Samson, not Sampson."

Samson. Exactly right.

"Is there supposed to be something particular about intelligence or lack of same in people from Leeds?"

I'm 80 or 100 pages in. This book is not as outright challenging as one by Charles Rosen I read not long ago, where I had to keep a regular dictionary, a music dictionary, and an index of CD performances in release at my elbow, so I could make any sense of it. Great book, actually.

This one is a bit easier; that is, assuming the reader already has Chopin's complete works and a selection of scores at hand, and a certain amount of background. It is not for the innocent virgin who is out for a splash in the shallow end, nor yet for the person who intends to swim the Channel.

I would imagine that Leeds is like other places, and people there are smart about things that matter to them.

I was feeling like a real jerk when I thought I had misspelled Samson's name.

Thanks for clearing it up for me. Cleff, you really sound like you put your all into reading that book. Of course, you are doing it the correct way, which I am sad to say, I do not always take all the preparation that I should.

My best to all,
Kathleen

Clef, do you recall the title of the Charles Rosen book you were reading? He is mentioned from time to time in the Pianist Corner, though more for his books than his recordings. I haven't read anything by him (but my first LP of Chopin's Op. 21 was his recording).

Speaking of books, is anyone familiar with Ornamentation in the Works of F. Chopin by John Petrie Dunn?

Steven

I have a very ancient fragile copy of it I got off ebay.

Our local classical station, KQAC, is sponsoring a tour that some of the readers of this thread might be interested in called In Pursuit of Chopin. You can find the itinerary here.

Ted

"Clef, do you recall the title of the Charles Rosen book you were reading? He is mentioned from time to time in the Pianist Corner, though more for his books than his recordings. I haven't read anything by him (but my first LP of Chopin's Op. 21 was his recording)."

I do, Steven: it was The Classical Style--- Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven. Norton, pub., 533 pp., including a pretty fair index. ISBN-13: 978-0-393-31712-1, about $22. Originally issued in 1971, this edition is dated 1998 and has an added chapter on Beethoven. It is a serious book that includes printed example sections of scores, by a very smart concert and recording pianist. Rosen's more recent career has been that of a university professor and author. Someone with a better musical education than I have would get more out of it, with less sweat. But, we do what we can.

He followed it up in 1995 with The Romantic Generation, which I have but have not yet read. It appears to be more of the same kind of material, but 733 pp. of it. Chopin stands alone in having two whole chapters. It is a pretty famous book by now, still in print, with not many others to keep it company. Harvard University Press, ISBN-13: 9780674779341, $24.50

For those who prefer something a little less intense, Piano Notes--- The World of the Pianist was still on the shelves at Barnes six months or so ago. 2002, Free Press pub.(Simon & Schuster), 245 pp., $13, ISBN-13: 9780743243124. Good book; it encouraged me to go further.

I would be glad to find some of his recordings still in release, but the pickings are thin. I envy you your copy of Op. 21.

Thanks so much for the detailed information, Clef.

I regret to tell you that I no longer have Rosen's recording of Op. 21; it was a casualty of my domestic transition from vinyl to CDs (though it's very possible that it may have been worn out anyway ).

Steven

Hello Chopin devotees,

I was wondering if anyone knew where I could obtain a picture of the original manuscript for Chopin Op. 10 No. 1.

Specifically, I was wondering if someone might be able to answer this question:
The doubled whole notes in the bass - were they aligned to the left (as most (all?) editions will show) or were they centered in each measure? I heard a claim of the latter, with the author suggesting that Chopin wanted to create a visual effect... but I won't believe it unless I see it.

Farful: There is no extant autograph manuscript of 10/1. There is a copyist's manuscript, apparently dating from Chopin's time in Warsaw, that does exist (it is housed in Warsaw). Some scholars once believed this manuscript is in Chopin's hand, but most today do not think so. (The script is really very different from his younger hand.) In this manuscript, the whole notes are centered in each bar.

But, in the first editions of op. 10, which Chopin supervised, the whole notes all appear conventionally at the left side of each measure. (You can look at these editions here: Chopin First Editions Online ) I think it likely that the appearance of the whole notes in the copyist's manuscript just followed a notational convention of the time, and that they were not meant to create any effect, visual or otherwise.

Jeff Kallberg

Farful: I forgot to answer your first question. If you can find a copy of Krystyna Kobylańska's Chopin in his Home Land, you will find a portion of the manuscript reproduced there.

Jeff Kallberg