Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#2042280 - 03/03/13 11:25 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: ando]
personne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: ando

No other brand has been spared a balanced critique on PW. It has been my observation for some time now that Estonia enjoys a strange prestige on PW. I'm not really sure why. To me they are just one of dozens of pianos out there which have no particular quality distinction over many others. It often feels to me like there is a sort of "sponsorship" of the Estonia company here. For some reason it doesn't sit well with me.


ando, you can meet some dealer sponsorship on forums, but I really understand the love for Estonia here. You can get a tier 2 grand for the price of tier 4. In the price range of Estonia are Boston, W.Hoffman, and Estonia beats them hands down. Or you can buy some other smaller tier2-tier3 grands for the price of Estonia, but size is size - Estonia can be still a better value, IMO.

Kawai RX-2 is other beloved piano here, and exactly by the same reason - at its price range it offers extremely good value.

What about quality distinction, I can admire Bosendorfer or Fazioli, but the love would be only theoretical - their pianos are absolutely out of reach for me.

What about quality of Estonia pianos, Mark's example shows that there could be problem pianos among them. But it is covered by the factory warranty though.
_________________________
Playing on Roland HP-507RW

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

#2042287 - 03/03/13 11:37 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Norbert]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19225
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Norbert
They fail to realize that the real "hypers of the industry" include some other brands whose long time efforts would dwarf anything ever being said about this small Baltic maker.
So you're saying your hyping is just not as great as hyping by others?

Originally Posted By: Norbert
These critics also don't realize that the need for further promotion for Estonia has long seized to be necessary with every single dealer known to me currently scrambling for replacement of existing stock.
Estonia makes a very small number of pianos per year. Therefore, the fact that dealers are scrambling for them should be of no surprise but rather expected. This has been pointed out to you many times.

Top
#2042296 - 03/03/13 11:49 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7235
Loc: Rochester MN
PLU - It has also "been pointed out to you many times" that your public diatribe against Norbert has become very tiresome.

There is no reason that Norbert shouldn't stand behind the brands which he carries. That is not "hype." It is being a good dealer.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2042303 - 03/03/13 11:59 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: turandot]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9132
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: turandot

BTW, I drive a Honda, but I'd rather have a Citroen. It's just so hard to source one.


Me too. thumb

Thanks for your post, Turandot. I actually understood what you were saying. I was just trying to further the discussion.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

Top
#2042304 - 03/03/13 12:02 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19225
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
PLU - It has also "been pointed out to you many times" that your public diatribe against Norbert has become very tiresome.

There is no reason that Norbert shouldn't stand behind the brands which he carries. That is not "hype." It is being a good dealer.
Not really.

It's the number of his posts that make it unquestionably hype. More than all the PW dealers combined by a huge margin. This is why many others besides me have said he same thing and even other dealers have complained.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying his endless hyping actually hurts these makes. Or do you think all the other dealers, who avoid the endless self congratulations and self promotion are just not being good dealers? You can't have it both ways.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/03/13 12:08 PM)

Top
#2042307 - 03/03/13 12:07 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14116
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Again and as usual, Mr Anonymous's above claim is false.

My posts about any of our brands including Estonia are far less these days than their [prospective] owners reporting about them.

Insider tip: those dealers not or hardly posting here are selling the majority of available pianos.

The smart ones I guess.....

Norbert grin


Edited by Norbert (03/03/13 12:29 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2042312 - 03/03/13 12:14 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Rich Galassini]
turandot Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7130
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini

I actually understood what you were saying. I was just trying to further the discussion.


Rich,

I don't know if that's possible. The thread seems to have gone into a laundry spin cycle where coins have come out of trouser pockets and can be heard rattling around in the drum. grin

How bout a what if?

It's been my observation that retailers give up a brand more often because of problems in their supply chain than because of anything to do with product quality. What happens if Estonia (like virtually every other maker) looks toward Asia, does not increase production, and availability becomes eve more of an issue for you guys than it is now?

Is the Estonia factory operating at full capacity?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#2042314 - 03/03/13 12:16 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2686
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hard to source is very fair. It's hard for me to source at times, and I'm the dealer. wink

Regional relevance and sometimes local dominance is possible for even the smallest makers. Little choices from dealers can really influence a local market. We did that for several brands in Atlanta.

Estonia is creeping into more prominent European dealers, but supplying current dealers and diversifying into new markets must be a difficult balance. I saw Gerd Finkenstein add Estonia to their roster. If the company decided to expand some, I think they would easily find customers, but as companies grow, they have different problems.

I trust the leadership to keep the product's identity over ambitions to be in every market. Thankfully, some of my customers are willing to travel like hotcat to discover what Estonia offers them. Actually, yesterday I had 2 customers drive 6 hrs (each way) to buy and another drive 4 hrs (each way) to narrow down (their second daylong trip).
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

Top
#2042329 - 03/03/13 12:52 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: turandot]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10449
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: turandot
Is the Estonia factory operating at full capacity?


It is.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#2042354 - 03/03/13 01:59 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Steve Cohen]
turandot Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7130
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: turandot
Is the Estonia factory operating at full capacity?


It is.


Well Steve. I expected someone from the power grid to respond, bu not you. After all, you've never stocked Estonia, never been its consultant, and don't personally own one. In fact your only possible business interest (trifling at best grin ) would be those nice ads in Pianobuyer that Estonia and at least four of its devoted retailers have entrusted to you. grin

So, if factory is at full capacity, you've got the hands that nave always fed you queueing up for more product, you've got Geerd Finkenstein waitng in the wings to open up Europe, and Asia beckons, what do you do short of increasing capacity? Is it loyalty or leverage?

The business answer would seem to be that you use your leverage.... keep increasing the wholesale and/or stiffening the order terms hoping to not go beyond the sweet spot. It seems like the formula for a lot of high-ticket pianos. And...having a higher sales price will fatten your tier points on Pianobuyer

Maybe Hotcat was smart to get in when he did.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#2042356 - 03/03/13 02:01 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: turandot]
personne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I believe Estonia pianos are hand-made pianos, so no point to increase production if you do not have enough experts to produce same high quality instruments smile
_________________________
Playing on Roland HP-507RW

Top
#2042359 - 03/03/13 02:06 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Norbert]
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1471
Loc: Encino, California
Originally Posted By: Norbert




These critics also don't realize that the need for further promotion for Estonia has long seized to be necessary


Shouldn't that be "ceased"? And that is probably what this thread should be as well.
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

Top
#2042379 - 03/03/13 02:45 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
hotcat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 102
Well, I'm a "she," not a "he," not that it matters! Anyway I'm highly amused and grateful that my almost first post has gotten so much traffic.

After my Estonia arrives I will plan to give honest, objective updates. In the meantime, I'm trying to get my house humid enough for the new arrival, and waiting for my new rug to be delivered. What with all this nesting I feel like I'm expecting a baby.

Top
#2042382 - 03/03/13 02:50 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7235
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: hotcat
What with all this nesting I feel like I'm expecting a baby.
In a way, you are!

Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2042426 - 03/03/13 04:51 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 305
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: hotcat
What with all this nesting I feel like I'm expecting a baby.
In a way, you are!

Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!


I echo that! Most threads about new purchases elicit friendly responses. This one took a different turn ...

Top
#2042449 - 03/03/13 05:26 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: turandot]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10449
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: turandot
Well Steve. I expected someone from the power grid to respond, bu not you. After all, you've never stocked Estonia, never been its consultant, and don't personally own one. In fact your only possible business interest (trifling at best grin ) would be those nice ads in Pianobuyer that Estonia and at least four of its devoted retailers have entrusted to you. grin

So, if factory is at full capacity, you've got the hands that nave always fed you queueing up for more product, you've got Geerd Finkenstein waitng in the wings to open up Europe, and Asia beckons, what do you do short of increasing capacity? Is it loyalty or leverage?

The business answer would seem to be that you use your leverage.... keep increasing the wholesale and/or stiffening the order terms hoping to not go beyond the sweet spot. It seems like the formula for a lot of high-ticket pianos. And...having a higher sales price will fatten your tier points on Pianobuyer



Again you are operating on a false premise. I have no earnings from advertising in Piano Buyer, and haven't for almost two years.

_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#2042469 - 03/03/13 06:05 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: pianoloverus]
AJF Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1597
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: AJF
If you haven't had all of your issues with YOUR instrument resolved then you need to pursue your dealer's attention. If that doesn't work then you need to pursue the company's attention. If that doesn't work then you need to talk to a lawyer. All that said, I can't see how in the end your issues can't find a resolution.
What this comment fails to understand is that all "issues" with pianos aren't clearly covered by a warranty. Warranties cover defects in materials and workmanship. When these are black and white issues like pin block failure, major cosmetic problems, parts breaking, delamination of the case, etc., the need for resolution by the dealer or company will be obvious. Other problems can be more subtle and not so clearly covered under a warranty.


I believe that Mark's "issue" with his piano was deemed to be defective strings.
It was with this understanding that I wrote my post. I don't believe there is a failing in my understanding to assume that faulty strings would easily be argued as something that falls under the umbrella of warranty coverage.

Top
#2042570 - 03/03/13 09:19 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: lilylady]
hotcat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 102


Yes, I'm looking into getting a Venta. For now I'm just using a cheap Vicks steam vaporizer. So far, in just a half a day it's moved from 20% to 28% so I figure that's good progress.

Top
#2042603 - 03/03/13 10:37 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
Did you get the piano saver system?

Top
#2042619 - 03/03/13 11:36 PM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Mark...]
hotcat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 102
Yes, I got the Dampp-Chaser.

Top
#2042686 - 03/04/13 04:42 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: Steve Cohen]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Yes. Estonia pianos are an Estonian brand that turned out pianos in the Soviet era. Remembering (and sometimes still being confronted with) the poor quality of these pianos is one of the main reasons that Estonia is not a successful brand in Europe.


Your position here is incorrect. I have spoken to Indrek on this topic on several occasions, most recently over dinner at NAMM. Estonia has limited production capabilities. For a variety of reasons Indrek doesn't want to significantly expand production. Estonia is able to easily sell the overwhelming majority of its production in the U.S. at reasonable margins.

It is not a major factor in the Europen market because it is not marketed there. Were its production sufficient to satisfy that market I have no doubt it would be a very competitive brand in Europe, as it is here in the U.S.

Also, the reason Estonia is discussed often on Piano World is that it is a very good value when compared to other brands selling in the same price range.

For clarity, I am not, nor have I ever been an Estonia dealer, nor a paid consultant for Estonia.


Speaking of echo chambers, the echo chamber extraordinaire enters stage left: our peripatetic passionate peddler of piddling piano publications proposes a paragraph to posit a point that is persistently posed and patently perverse. grin

You actually appear to be in agreement with me that Estonia is presently almost exclusively a US brand that is not marketed in Europe and therefore also not a respected, successful European piano brand, any more than if Wurlitzer were built in China and sold exclusively in Somalia could it be called a respected and successful US piano brand.

There is no dispute on the what. The dispute seems to be on the " Why ". However, here we also would appear to be in agreement on the face of it that the US, oblivious to the history, is an easy market for Estonia compared to trying to turn around their brand image in Europe. It is a matter of opportunism.

If, given the limited production inherent on this kind of manufacturing, other markets become more promising than the US, then the same kind of opportunism may lead Estonia to raise prices making their instruments less of a good value or focus on those markets and abandon the US in the same way it abandoned Europe, rather than undergo the significant risks involved in attempting to scale up antiquated production methods.

Top
#2042722 - 03/04/13 07:41 AM Re: Estonia L190--looking for reassurance! [Re: hotcat]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
Originally Posted By: hotcat
Yes, I got the Dampp-Chaser.


excellent choice!

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
85 registered (AndrewJCW, angga888, AimeeO, 26 invisible), 1335 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75509 Members
42 Forums
156146 Topics
2293058 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Youtube! :)
by PianoPlayer98
14 minutes 48 seconds ago
Youtube! :)
by PianoPlayer98
Today at 01:47 AM
Headphones Sennheiser MOMENTUM On-Ear
by khopin
Today at 12:54 AM
How struts define pitch variation between tunings
by Bosendorff
Yesterday at 11:40 PM
Pianist Noah Landis - Lowell, MA Sept. 6th
by Piano World
Yesterday at 06:09 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission