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Thank you ! when I asked the colleague why he was tuning like that (not always but often) he stated to me he did so when he was tired.

I did not really understand that since today. It is indeed somehow easy on the ears (but one may have a decent technique to uses some checks and keep the control on what is going on)

I tend to believe that the instrument is helping much.

I played around with it today and especially in Bach "stilo antiqua" fugues (the theme is slow in whole and half notes) the "musical" unisons add a lot at the exposition of the theme (one voice only). If you play it on organ the single notes are always "living", due to the imperfection of the pipes. Played on a simple electronic "organ" those notes stand out for having no "body", but on a real organ there are many random interferences and the note swells and diminishes in an organic manner, resembling the human voice.

I think the "slightly-off" unisons provide the same liveliness to the notes, going all the way back to the original intention of mechanical instruments as imitation the human voice.

Alfredo: I've heard the evidence and I'm convinced. By the sounds, not by the verbiage (which is mostly nonsense to me).

Kees

@Kees: your observation with the organ is relevant, even though that opens up the topic to how we hear a melody in context with a temperament.

No matter how well an organ is tuned, or what kind of tuning is used, the organ is going to have its own "temperament" due to the all of the different variables going on. Even if the organ is perfectly in tune, and the room temperature is held constant, the longer the note is sustained, the more the pitch will change due to blower temperature. This naturally means that a normal organ is going to be all over the place in terms of pitch, and also is what gives it "life."

I wanted to point out that this out-of-tune from a piano technicians standpoint. We are dealing with much smaller increments in terms of unisons. It wasn't clear in your comment, but a good example using the organ might be to compare a melody on one manual using a combination of different stops that speak at the unison (i.e., with the accompaniment on a different manual).

Electronic organs, and pianos for that matter, combine tones in a completely different way than real instruments. In real instruments, the tones do not simply combine, but the tones slightly get pulled/pushed in different directions before combining. Electronic instruments will continue to get better, it is just going to take some time to figure out how to program in more of the variables.

443 ! Best description to date, for me ! IT also respect the standards while I hardly find adequate words to describe what I do.

I would add that the backyard noise or "backyard coupling" available from the rest of the instrument allows the tuner to more or less get the note he tunes coupled with other notes in the instrument.
As the hammer and temperament may limit some partials from being audible they are yet there ready coming from other strings, coupling thru the bridge and soundboard (or the air, whatever, but the coupling is real)

(OT: strike point also rarely as black or white as having a node impacted with a partial really damped, strike point is very often between 2 nodes, near one but not really ON it)

The "hold" is energized (? or could it be less disturbed) when more coupling occurs in the rest of the environment (i.e. vertical piano with background vibes due to inefficient damping, high treble region with no dampers).

My take is that if the tuner can be attentive on the level of coupling available and regulates the perceived hold to that he can obtain a richer tone.

(my EDT experience makes me believe that the way we clean the tone when looking at the display tend to limit the way our ears focus on something else, call it psychology but the more reaction from the environment, the more the display is jumpy, and the tuner does not like that much.

But I would tune differently today if I used an EDT (grammar please !) so it can be "just an assumption" .

Have a good day all I will have less time to write for a few days.. That was nice and I hope we will come to something else sooner or later !

Extract from the answer of PTMPiano (on Youtube) Japanese technician who was kind enough to write in answer to my question on tuner education in Japan..

The majority of tuners in Japan is to bang on the keyboard to the rhythm.Adjust the sound and listen for the sound at the moment of pronunciation.

But,I until the afterglow from the string when they are shot, and then heard the sound tuning.I am up to the sound of the reverberation from the sound that is chord strokes, has been tuned so that the clean sound.I, other than the Japanese tuner, chord strokes are soft.

....
As I understand it he say he is more attentive to the sustain but primarly focus on the hold as it is instructed to do in Japan schools...

I made a few spectrum analysis of a few unisons and intervals,

the pics are ther.

I find the spectras very clean.

Noticed also something funny, there is always a beat located a few ms after the attack it correspond to the hold peak I suppose. So I graphed the attack then the sustain
There was a 1Hz difference in pitch it raise in the dwell, which is probably normal because more partials are coupling.

I should try similar measurements with the outer strings tuned low, just to compare.

Here are the graphs :
https://plus.google.com/photos/105302745854671017472/albums/5738586224074967809

..."2) I have found that unisons in octaves 2 and 3 (especially the wound bichords) have some room for pitch adjustment. And yes, I have heard how this changes the partial matching without creating a beat at the fundamental. I still prefer the sound when all the partials are matched as well as possible. My pianos have several mis-matched bichords, where I have to compromise to minimise partial beating. However, if the two strings' partial envelopes are well-matched, I try to line them up perfectly."...

Hi Mark R.,

Good that you can already hear "...how this changes the partial matching without..."; you can then consider the tone "color", its definition and consistency throughout all the octaves. Do "try to line them up" the way you like, do "compromise" to optimize evenly these octaves' voice, also in relation to where you go from three to two strings unisons.

..."3) I have found that some unisons in octaves 4 and 5 become very percussive and loud if the unison is totally clean. I have tried to experiment with adjusting the pitch of one string to get a more sustained sound. But this is not always successful. Often, I have to choose between ... clean but percussive and loud ... better singing and sustain, but starting to beat (phasing). If I am confronted with this choice, I will always choose "clean but percussive"."...

In the case you mention, I too might choose "clean and percussive": that would let me evaluate the tone's basic shape, helping me to realize if "very percussive and loud" is because regulation → voicing is needed.

Hi Kees,

..."Alfredo: I've heard the evidence and I'm convinced. By the sounds, not by the verbiage (which is mostly nonsense to me)."

I can sincerely be glad for you. Thanks for being concise.

Hi Isaac,

Last night I edited my post and could listen to your sample. Very nice indeed... it gave me a serene sleep!

..."I should try similar measurements with the outer strings tuned low, just to compare."

Yes, that would be great, especially if the equipment enables to detect small differences and the whole settings (including touch) are going to be the same.

Very interesting evidences, thank you.

Regards,

a.c.
.

Kamin:

Your grammar is better than mine. Sorry I have no way to correct your grammar. You always use "EDT", should it be "ETD" -- Electronic Tuning Device?

Thank you Weyan ! I did not notice... but I was asking if my sentence is correct grammatically; if someone can tell me :
"I would tune differently today if I used an ETD" (if I would use ?)

Thank you

Your grammar is fine....

Thank you for Issac's encouragement, I make some Unison tuning videos. I actually not know what style is my unison.

For me, this piano is a badly tuned piano.
Unisons are not "tight"
The overall tone feeling is weak.
I don't like this type of tuning (if it is a type of tuning)
I don't like fooling around with non perfect unisons.
I doubt it can be useful.
I use DOA for the last two treble octaves only and for the remaining of the piano, I prefer perfect beatless sustain.

This is just my personal opinion and still I find this tread very interesting.

regards,

Hello Mario, thanks for giving your opinion and idea on that.

I believe that we have each a different definition of "perfect" that is why it is nice to be able to put more "standardized" description as you see to do there.

In the end there are many possibilities and each tuner have a different tone due to many factors. It happened I tuned a concert piano with in my ear the tone of a recording I listened to the day before, and that I liked much.
While tuning, I was trying to obtain the same tone I hear, and in the end this particular tuning did sound differently than others I have done.

WHat have been so much disturbing to me was the differences in final tone I had on differnt occasions, whithout knowing how conscientiously reproduce one particular feeling I had at some day.
My colleagues had relatively similar tone as we tune the same brand and model of instrument most of the time, the diffences between us lessen, despite of that it was possible (sometime) to recognize who had tuned the piano the last time (2 of us had really noticeable tone)

Building tone is part of the tuner's culture here, but I agree many of us will not admit unisons can be different. (and each us is trying to tune his "perfect" unisons !.)

Something very important also : voicing allows for more or less possible choices on unisons , and push the tuner in a direction or another.

Weyan, I did not listen yet to all the videos, so I will make other comments later.

I think you should learn to quiet down and find an adequate rhythm , for the bass for instanc ethe rythm is better for the last note you tune, on the others you tend to listen yet alittle late.

But what you may try to avoid is that way to play fast and strong the note before tuning it, it does not help and your ears get more tired.

I am unsure why you do so, may be to keep some part of the tone in the ear, it is not necessary, you can do better by playing calmly at an even speed (changing depending of where you are in the scale and also depending of what the piano provides in terms of tone)

One of the instructions from our Japanese colleague is "play rhythmically" that is an important direction to follow, to me. .Your rhythm is not that bad (in the basses) but you broke it when you play those fast strokes, they sound too strong, if I want to hear well the attack I try to play very softly, before going back to the "standard rhythm of the tuner"

Thanks for providing the videos..

Some notes in the basses are toning good once "unisoned" , seem to me. I will listen the rest and add comments

You HAVE to find an adequate rythm with the playing hand this hand have to tune as much as the other...

Ii will quieten the other hand, also, you will raise less, you will take your time and in the end be faster. I recall how difficult it may be to be attentive to the posture, to feel his body to act as a whole while tuning, but this is important.

You hear finely, you seem to manipulate in the good direction the lever, just quieten all ... If you want to be sure of the string rendering you can play each time twice, one strong one quiet (if you like to hear the strong tone of the attack it is possible playing it just once very shortly and immediately play the note calmly to tune. just avoid to listen to the attack so often it may stress the ear. even rhythm is easier, even if you did not finish to tune play the note again when its time for, keep the rhythm flowing... more important than you believe (the playing hand)

If your take your time now, you will tune faster tomorrow...

I will listen better to say something about unisons but the ear seem to be good.

As an exercise/experiment, I suggest you :
close your eyes
breathe deeply,
try to tune a few unisons while playing VERY softly,

then a few others while playing strong, compare the sensations, compare the tone in the end.

Those very long lever oblige you to make large movements to obtain small increments, you may wish a shorter lever after some time.

You try too much to turn the pin, if you go less fast you will raise the note less and with a better control. Remember that is your left hand that have the note moving, really, if the note is not played it does not move as much.

Isaac,

Thank you for your comment.

I feel safety only when the arm touch something, either the top of piano or the hammer rest. This post make me deadly tired. I use wrist to push / pull the hammer.

I will try Dan Levitan's post. I also understand more about Dan's method after reading your comment.

For the bass, I tune to deadly solid, may be this is lifeless.

75% control 25% guessing (final pin setting obtained by hard note played from above pitch first doublet of A5 left with a beat) , but things can be different from what I see.
Not sure it is better for the back. I dont like pushing so directly on the most important part of the hole in the block, but , if I had to choose between my health and the piano...

I saw a physician specialized in musician's posture once and showed him the standing posture for tuning, he stated it is bad particularly because the back is not straight, so the more straight we are the better it is. I can send him the video for advice.

To minimize the effort absolutely we have to
support the arm , the playing hand also heps to support a little.

When sitting, the posture is more difficult to learn but easier on the back as you can use force from the whole body more easily.

Is it me or do Dan's unisons still sound out of tune?

Some of them, the tone is not controlled up to its last increments.

Tuning rythm too slow to be very precise, also, he tunes the tail and expect the whole tone to be OK, which is not totally the case.

more a demonstration of a particular hammer technique, to me.

Bottom of the pin is unlocked more easily with this technique.