Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
Some pianists tell their preferences. Many hate any moaning but if a beat cannot be perceived everything is possible) when partials are tightly coupled they rob some energy from fundamental and no beat is really heard as the time for it correspond to the lessening of the strenght of fundamental. Probaly the pitch change a tad toward the end of the sustain.
I find that coupling the outer strings allow to limit any extra motion. then a well driven sound body is just sligtly exited by that center string who want to couple with the outer strings and cannot for physical reasons. So my vuess the center string go on rebounds from one side to the other. That is enoygh to bring life even to a very straight unison that sound enlarged then.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Once all the notes of the piano are recorded it will show you the actual "Railsback curve" and compute an optimized one, then you will see the difference between what you tuned and the optimal tuning computed. This would be instructive.
The tuning curve is speaking for itself, showing the jumps in the curve that are due to the jumps in iH when the scaling is not very good.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Yes the pin are set (while it could be set more strongly) .
What I notice is that the last tuned string close the tone a little, it is better sounding before that last string.
This is what I call the "self shrinking effect" right and middle strings are Ok, the left one is robbing to that doublet.
This is now I notice the precision of the display is not so high, the right string is correctly (to me) a little higher than the center, but this is not noticed much on the display.
Good control of tone on that first doublet.
I would have done similar work on the left+center string.
It is possible to tune with the 3 strings sounding but it is difficult to keep the control on the dynamic of the tone.
If it where a pitch raise the pin setting is not so important, but here I believe it is a normal tuning.
Last edited by Kamin; 05/16/1206:48 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Hi ! Your playing hand and rhythm is far better ! congratulations.
You are mostly tuning from above, let me suggest that you listen to the tone raise (slow pull) more, then you will get a better knowledge of the pin elasticity, your stabilization will be better. (and you will go less high even if here you dont raise as much as with the precedent videos, which is good)
Your raise of the note is also far better !
I often rhythm as you, with a strong very short stroke immediately followed by a longer one , the attack serves me to focus on the energy of attack while at the same time to be sure that the wire is moving, and the softer touch is to tune the spectra.
You are lucky it is easier to learn that from the start because you did not tune before and have not much "habits".
But you have a good ear and understanding of tuning, seem to me. For how long did you tune ?
PS posture is also better with a support for the ankle/the arm. At that point you can tune with 3 fingers and the wrist, it is more precise than with the round part of the hammer in the palm (because when using the palm, the wrist is locked more)
You are yet doing so a little may be you could change the end of the lever to a more standard one ?
I like to have my hand making the same basic move as if I was washing a mirror, and use thumb, second and 3d fingers.
If using the palm of the hand, I dont use it on the ball but around the handle, standing really at the right of the lever.
I never had enough precision with the ball shape (I used much of them) comfort, yes, precision and tactile feedback, no, less than with standard lever holding.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Wow, I gave up watching after the first few as they all had an audible (but slow) beating. Definitely not clean!
I agree partly : unisons could be cleaner, but the way Weyan is listening is how it may be listening to, this is clearly audible to me.
Please propose something yourself "clean" (and remember the tone on Youtube is never truly "clean")
I agree that YouTube audio is never ideal, but there is a clearly audible (but slow) beating in the upper partials, especially of the first few notes he tunes. If I was the customer, I would not be happy about that. If I recall correctly, Dan Levison's video, while still having somewhat poor sound quality, does show cleaner unisons.
Which video are you talking of ? Weyvan is learning on his own piano, the other one is a demonstration of an unison, (with some tone building IMO).
The way the tuner listen is often too much focused on clarity or purity , if a move is perceived in the tone it is not always a beat, it is also the tone envelope which is providing the same effect naturally (assuming the voicing and the piano are providing that which is far from being always the case)
I will not begin an argue between Dan Levitan, PTG of whatever ... if it was the intention
Beating in the top of the spectra is often present only because there are differences in length and spectra between the 3strings. (on the highly inharmonic lower plain wire that motion is even helping to even the tone from plain to the wound strings)
The way we manage the coupling between that part of the spectra is what provides a more or less lively tone. A beat is something I perceive between fundamentals and that is heard after some time in the sustain. As long as some coupling occurs soon enough there is no "beat".
What is really important for a novice tuner is to be aware of the tuning of the energy, (hence the attack) and that is done presently by Weyan , on the contrary of its precedent videos. (at last he goes better in that direction)
He try to tune with a strong hard tone all at the attack. then he clean the spectra but that part is not well mastered.
But I am to wait and listen again in a few weeks.
Last edited by Kamin; 05/16/1208:05 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
443, Let's go back to the original question. Would you, knowingly and willingly destroy the stability of a piano standing solidly at the internationally accepted standard pitch expected of a piano cared for by a professional because it says 435 on the frame? What are your criteria for selecting which of your clients you would perform this special treat for? Would you try to convince a client to have this done against their better judgement? Would you charge them extra? The list is endless. Just how strong are these convictions of yours?
This is a public forum. The public should be aware that there are those who would screw around with their piano in this way for no good reason.
In my 30 years in the 'States I have come across these pianos and they all hold 440 or slightly above with absolutely no problems. I treat all my clients as serious musicians or potential serious musicians and there Is an accepted standard of pitch and its accepted local variations (of which 435 isn't one and never has been) that serious musicians expect of me. This is the same whether I work in a major city with 5 world class orchestras or the tinyest mountain hamlet with an upright in the village hall. Come to remember it, I think that upright also had 435 stamped on it!!!
@rXd Since this comment was misplaced, I responded to you back on the appropriate thread.
Isaac, thank you. I will try what you suggested tomorrow. Slow pull from lower pitch may give another perspective of unison. If doing this way, need to set pin again after deciding the correct voicing?
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Isaac, thank you. I will try what you suggested tomorrow. Slow pull from lower pitch may give another perspective of unison. If doing this way, need to set pin again after deciding the correct voicing?
Yes the end of the job would be similar but when you raise more slowly you will have a better feel for "how much to raise" and to the level of torque the pin is accepting before turning. Only when very experienced one can jump to the pin setting position more or less directly (if in a hurry, as long term stability is less good then that is essentially good for pitch raising IMO) . In your actual motion there is still too much (or not enough of evaluation, you could lower the level of that part by acting the same at the beginning of the move than you do yet in the end (simply the other direction).
It will be slower as it is the same as "setting the pin" while raising, then setting the pin for tuning (same sensations just the other direction)
You are yet tuning from above I suggest you tune from below, then from above Then the pin is set !
Last edited by Kamin; 05/16/1211:01 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Yes , mostly some doublets are perfect then the 3d string is not in the same mood. The F#3 is very strong and pure but straight then.
Generally speaking the corrections should not implies untuning the string but directly correcting the string which is low or beating.
That is why I stress him to have the same motion and listening when raising the string than when lowering it. This open the door to the smallest corrections and allows to master better the initial raising.
learning to recognize very fast which doublet is high /low is important.
A light push on the lever show if the string is high or low.
Tuning 3 strings at once is reserved to experimented tuners IMO and it is very difficult to keep the control then.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
I have a question in regards to unisons here and am wondering what criteria different tuners use in this situation. Lets say you are tuning two bichord strings. Both strings by themself dont exibit any false beating or other problems. However, when matching them up there is a significant difference of inharmonicity on a single partial, either directly below or above the partial you would be concentrating on for that note.
Obviously a compromise of sorts is in order but this compromise involves weighting several factors in your attempt to clean it up. Would you tend to split the error between the partial your concentrating on and the offending one? Would you favour cleaning up the louder offending partial if its below your target partial? If its a higher offending partial and quieter than your target, would you ignore it and match out the target partial?
I'm just wondering if several different quality tuners would rectify this with different results that are purely a matter of taste, or is there a common ground that could be seen thats based on valid reasoning.
Piano Technician George Brown College /85 Niagara Region
I have a question in regards to unisons here and am wondering what criteria different tuners use in this situation. Lets say you are tuning two bichord strings. Both strings by themself dont exibit any false beating or other problems. However, when matching them up there is a significant difference of inharmonicity on a single partial, either directly below or above the partial you would be concentrating on for that note...
Look at the length of plain wire between the termination points and the start of the copper windings. A difference in that length can cause the IH problem. You might be able to fix it by trimming the copper to match. However re-swedging the end of the copper to keep it from unwinding further might be difficult.
@Emmery That is a very good question: what do you do with strings that don't necessarily match up [but also don't have a false beats]? This happens often on american pianos, especially if you include false beats into the equation. I personally, take this on a case-by-case bases: I try and slow down that which is most audible, and then balance that with what stands out to me in relation to the octave(s). Sometimes, what is not so audible in the unison, really stands out in the octave, and other times, it's exactly the opposite. As to what string I use to compensate...I can't really say: I think that it may be different for me in each situation. But, I would be OK to allow one string to be lower than intended, as long as it doesn't mess up what is going on with the octave. I'd rather it mess something up in the temperament, than with something in the octave...so, that is my compromise.