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No. That is not true. You have your facts wrong. I am an agnostic, and I have not been in a church for any reason in decades except for a service that took place after my father's death. I still remember the priest who talked about my father as if he knew him, when in fact he knew nothing about him. There is a huge wedge between my brother and me because he is a “true believer”, and I am not.

I am not an atheist. I simply am a person who “does not know”.

Sounds like the worst of two worlds to me. Although I am not religious myself I do believe that there are people who are who can make eloquent arguments for what they believe in. “Suspending critical thinking at the door of the church” just sounds schizophrenic to me.

Tim, I am truly sorry to hear this. Some have called this the “doomsday political machine”, and anyone who makes light of the consequences is lucky enough not to be directly affected by it.

My conclusion, as always: the inmates are running the asylum. Years ago, when I chose to become a teacher, I realized I could never exist in a system. I do not know of one that does not severely limit what a good teacher can or could do.

This is exactly how I feel, Gary. There was a time when I wanted to teach at a college, but then realized that I'd have a boss and would not be able to do exactly what I felt was best for students due to political things. So the only option was to stay as a private teacher. I know that not all colleges are like that, but seriously, there is always some level of politics in each institution, so you have to choose which level you can deal with.

I also question if the arts should be treated academically to begin with when you're talking about training professionals. I find too much focus on things that you can grade and test and not enough focus on learning to perform. Just my opinion.

Many years ago I was hired as a “fill-in” teacher at what then was a junior college. Apparently things were much busier in the fall, and they were short. So I got to teach some piano there for non piano majors, with the agreement that I would teach a music appreciation class.

I was HORRIBLE at it, the class. I asked for feedback, and the students said that I was inconsistent, which I felt. Something about dealing with many people at the same time bothered me, and teaching this course gave me flashbacks to required basic studies I had to take at FSU, classes I LOATHED. I dropped out of school, by the way, after having covered all my music studies and having completed all but this basic studies crap. I knew that the only reason for my being in those classes was to pay some other teacher, help pad the class, and I was a prisoner in those classes.

I did finally complete the few basic studies courses I needed, got my degree, than RAN from anything to do with colleges for about 20 years. In a way I guess I “sold out” by trying to do that college teaching. But it left such a horrible taste in my mouth, if you know what I mean. I felt as if I had joined “the enemy”.

There are some tough questions linked to those thoughts. I have never needed a degree in all the time I have been teaching other than that one failed gig at the junior college. I HAVE one, but I have never had to show it. I have heard teacher after teaching talk about administrators meddling with their teaching, with only a few here and there managing to sort of “establish” turf and buck the system, so to speak.

So like you I am happy that I chose to go it alone. I also have zero connections with other teachers in this area. I would be more likely to talk with someone local in a forum like this than through any other means. I'm a lone wolf by temperament, I suppose.

Yes he did.

And no he didn't.

Strangely enough, your sentence is both true and false. Your sentence structure leaves two interpretations possible.

Before his conversion, CS Lewis was an Anglican who professed to be a believer. He did not call himself an atheist, before conversion. So you're wrong.

After his conversion, CS Lewis believed that his prior state of belief had been atheistic. He then called himself an atheist before conversion, but only after conversion. So you're right.

My reading of what he said convinced me he went from lukewarm belief to fervent belief.

One thing is clear: he was never a professed atheist.

Conversions do happen, in both directions.

The majority are from believer to atheist, and are based on some level of critical thinking. Exposure to science class in college seems to do a fair job by about Thanksgiving break for a large number of students. Different religions and denominations within such are affected differently.

The minority are from atheist to believer, and are based on an emotional event.

There are a large number that appear to be fraudulent as well.

It does seem reasonable to evaluate teacher performance.

Doing so by test scores seems inherently flawed, because then their performance depends on factors beyond their control, and because it causes them to teach to the test. And while all classes teach to the test to some extent, if the test is related to the material, these particular tests seem to have flaws.

How would you evaluate teachers?

KeyString, before continue the discussion, what is your stand?

1. The standardized testing itself is OK, but the quality of the test in BC is the problem, so is the institute interprets the result.

2. Standardized testing in any form at any frequency in the public school system is bad.

Cheers

The Monkeys, from what I've seen, I see no use for it, and also possible harm.

How about how it was always done? When I was teaching, the principal came to observe classes and look at paperwork. The superintendent of schools came in to look at my work. He observed classes, looked at what students were doing and at their results. I remember him asking me for a "matrix" which was a new concept I had not been told of in teacher's college. I loved the idea and adopted it from then on. A matrix is where you create a chart for the year where you show what you plan to teach when for all the subjects. You include "integration", meaning the overlap between subjects. For example, if you teach science, something you are teaching in math. can be applied, and reading/writing skills can be applied.

The idea that a commercial body should oversee such things seems absurd.

Since you have already taken side, it is pointless to discuss the quality of the test and the interpretation of the result, since you will only see the flaws.

What is your stand on SAT and ACT? Do you think they are necessary?

I did not start with an opinion. I started by looking at the tests. I have also given information - several times - and I don't think you are considering any of it. If so, then discussing it further doesn't seem worthwhile. Besides, the main topic is supposed to be what is going on in Florida.

The idea that commercial bodies should be allowed to control the banking system and crash the world economy, extracting billions in profits and tax dollars for themselves, or the provision of health care or social health insurance and profiting obscenely by keep millions of of people uninsured and sick and/or underinsured and dying, or having private mercenary corporations receiving tens of billions of dollars to commit war crimes abroad, etc. etc. all seem to me to be infinitely more absurd.

Yet those are the choices being made.

Why would this be a surprise?

I was genuinely impressed that you took time to look into the FSA test samples and investigated Fraser Institute, I do appreciate your opinions. Yes, you provided opinion to the FSA test samples and some information of Fraser Institute.
And I probably used wrong words in my post, English is not my first language after all, so I not sensitive to the tone.

But apparently the issue is not the quality or frequency of the test, nor the interpretation of the result. It is the standardized test itself you are opposing to. And you are not alone, many people in this forum shares your view.

If any form of the standardized would change your mind, I would have plenty to talk about. But it is not the case, so I didn't feel it would be useful to talk about it, it is a different argument.

Teachers, parents, students and government all see things from different angles, I don't think any party holds the whole truth, we all have to live with some compromise, it is just the way it is.

I would not want to rate the level of absurdity for those different matters, but otherwise I might agree.

However, perhaps if people were taught to think instead of how to fill in bubbles on tests, more people might be aware that these things are happening, and perhaps some of this absurdity might eventually be changed.

Or maybe not...

Regardless, do you have anything to add from personal experience as a teacher? Have you taught music, for instance? Do you or have you taught piano privately?

Some of us are talking about how testing affects our work, as teachers, because of problems it creates that directly affect what we do. I was talking specifically about testing done in Florida, in my area, and some of the results I see on a daily basis as the result of said testing.

I don't know much of anything about being a management consultant, which your profile says is your occupation. What do you know about teaching piano, which is my occupation?

But to implement testing that is valid and tests integration and mastery, essay questions for example, requires having real, live, paid teachers to mark and correct them. And we all know that that is impossible since if you read the newspaper or pay attention at local city hall and school board meetings, almost all teachers are lazy, incompetent, overpaid, union sheltered slackers that we would all be better off without, along with firefighters, police men and women and others spending our tax dollars. The Banksters of course deserve all their hard-earned billions. And testing corporations that get on the gravy train are off limits too.

No, it doesn't. My sentence structure is perfectly clear. But my FACTS may be in error.

I said:


I stated, very clearly, that Lewis called himself an atheist before his “conversion”.

You seem to have read otherwise, so I have done some reading myself and now think I was wrong.

Or perhaps it is fairer to say that there is considerable disagreement about what the word “atheist” means.

So there is a great deal of debate about just what CS Lewis was at the time that he LATER called himself an atheist.

As always the truth is complicated, Tim, and I'm glad you pushed me to do some more research.

I would continue this, but in the end this is a forum for music, not religion, so I think we will end up boring or annoying other people if we carry on...

I don't know how to respond to this, or if I should even try.

Your post sounds like a rant.

So do some of my posts.

If we had the opportunity to sit down and talk, I suspect we might find out that we are more in agreement on many of your points than you realize.

Have you ever considered that in my case you may be preaching to the choir?

Well, it is a forum. Although we appear to be having a dialog just the two of us, in fact, our dialog is being heard by many others. I hope you don't see me as arguing with or against you but arguing towards certain (shared) points...Peace!

That's how I see it too, but on doing a little research myself I realized many references do see him as an atheist-to-Christian conversion example. I think they misrepresent what really happened, but it's hard to know.

I completely agree! The tests are called EOG and they begin in about a month. Students already super stressed about them. Happens every year.

Had a student the other day in tears because she is failing some of her subjects, gets punished, but then tells her mother in my presence that the teacher is not explaining the homework, and mother agrees. How in the world do you sit by and not become the tiger mom and go down and complain?!?!?!