Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2042727 - 03/04/13 07:49 AM Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
I wasn´t sure to open up a new thread, but I only found some topics concerning the N1 and nothing specific concerning the
NU 1. So here I am :-)

After a long time with a real Yamaha piano I swithced to a Kawai CA-63 and then afterwards to a CLP 370. Still wanting to have the best feel closest to the real thing, I went to a local dealer to test the new Avantgrand models. I allready had the chance a long time back to play the N1 and N3. The N3 being outside of my pricerange. Now due to the smaller model NU1 which seems to have the upright mechanic build inside, I went out to compare both.

The major differences between the two models was the heavier feel of the N1 compared to the NU1 which was really light in pressing the keys. Perhaps this was due to the difference caused by the different mechanics inside. The N1 was diffucult to play on fast pieces (eg. Chopin Etudes). I really had a hard time getting through the notes without having my fingers fall off. Perhaps due to lack of training, but sure noticable for me. An advantage of the N1 was that the keys were "softer" in feel. Pressing the keys was harder, but throughout the key travel it was much softer than the NU1. But still I prefer the lighter touch of the NU1.

I played both with headphones. The sampling instruments (CF III and CFX) is supposed to be different. To be honest I would´nt have noticed, if this had not been mentioned in the specs...
For me the most important thing is the feel.
Compared to the Yamaha upright I used to have, the NU1 is as close as is gets at the moment. The sound in the store was good and I could´nt find anything to fuss about. It had 2 speaker at the top and 2 big ones on the bottom below the keyboard. I even think it had 2 speakers on the back aligned to the wall. At least there were some kind of speaker cut outs ;-)

Looking closely at the 2 instruments, I will most probably decide to give away my CLP for one of these "Hybrids". The sound was not awfull compared to my CLP (where I tend to hear the loops if I want to) but far better in responce of the keyboard.
What I did realize is, that the sensors (at least on the N1) seem to be the same style as the Silent models they made/make. Below the keys there are optical sensors that compute the keytravel into the tone.
And this is the only major question I still have concerning these models:
Is this the same system that Yamaha uses on their silent pianos?? Are these systems the same on the NU1 and N1?

In my Yamaha upright I had the silent system. I admit it was an older system but also based on the optical sensors. Small wave memory, one single piano voice......not very nice.
After some time it did not work very efficient any more. Even when pressing the notes softly the piano emitted the wrong sound level. Sometimes a note was not played at all :-(

I am very happy with my CLP especially concerning the third key sensor :-) I hope of course the Yamaha system on the Avantgrand or NU1 have something quite as good.

Does anyone have any info on this?

Allways thankful for any other opinions :-)

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
The Right Mic Makes all the Difference. Piano Mics at Sweetwater

Click Here


#2042852 - 03/04/13 01:28 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Belger1900
What I did realize is, that the sensors (at least on the N1) seem to be the same style as the Silent models they made/make. Below the keys there are optical sensors that compute the keytravel into the tone.
And this is the only major question I still have concerning these models:
Is this the same system that Yamaha uses on their silent pianos?? Are these systems the same on the NU1 and N1?

In my Yamaha upright I had the silent system. I admit it was an older system but also based on the optical sensors. Small wave memory, one single piano voice......not very nice.
After some time it did not work very efficient any more. Even when pressing the notes softly the piano emitted the wrong sound level. Sometimes a note was not played at all :-(


Actually the sensing on Yamaha's hybrids is done in two places. There are two optical sensors near the hammers. When the hammers break the path of the light going across those sensors, the time it takes between them is used to compute hammer velocity. That's where the main work happens.

There is also a red light under the keys, which we presume is similar in operation to the various MIDI strips that are used to make a silent option in an acoustic. These strips operate by shining a light on the bottom of the keys and measuring how the intensity of the reflected light changes as the key is pushed down. They are subject to some technical issues.

We don't know exactly how these sensors work together, but a logical way for it to be done would be for the two sensors on the hammer to be solely responsible for velocity calculation. The sensor under the key can be responsible for computing whether the dampers are engaged or not.

The primary advantage of a three-sensor action in general is that they can separate the velocity computation from the determination of whether dampers (i.e., note-off) are engaged. Thus you can play a note a second time without damping the first by lifting the key.

In a two-sensor action the two sensors must do both jobs which constrains one of the sensors to be located pretty high up in the key travel. This also means in order to repeat, you have to lift the key all the way to where dampers are engaged.

One could imagine that Yamaha's sensor system is superior to a regular electromechanical three-sensor action (it's almost certainly superior to a typical silent piano's sensor system...at least the aftermarket ones).

The outstanding issue is how close together the velocity sensors are. In principle they should be really close and right at the point of escapement (or even after). Earlier experiments have shown that AvantGrands are not capable of playing off the jack, which *might* be evidence that they sensors are not real close together, which would be sad. Or it might be evidence that what I have described is not exactly how the sensors work. We have had some people complain that it's hard to quickly repeat on the AvantGrands despite the physical double escapement, but that impression may be due to the apparent heavy weight of the action.


Edited by gvfarns (03/04/13 01:34 PM)

Top
#2042855 - 03/04/13 01:32 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
titowsky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 53
Very interesting topic Belger!
Thank you for your report: we have many things in common. I possess an old Yamaha Silent upright, a C6 and... as maybe you can see some threads ago, I just decided to change my pretty new Kawai CA95 for the NU1 just for the reason that... I find this one much more real at the touch (which is my only important concern in a serious DP).

I recognize that the keyboard in my opinion is a little bit too soft, as I like to study on heavier keys in order to enforce my weak fingers smile

I am also interested in the questions you have done: I did not experience any degradation of my Yamaha Silent over the years, but I admit I did not use the electronics so much (I prefer often to play totally mute, just imaging and feeling the feedback on my fingers, arms, shoulders... then verify that acoustically).

Don't you have any trobles with fast repeated chords on NU1? (like strange responses by the eletronics) ...I still have to wait for mine, so I am getting nervous smile


Edited by titowsky (03/04/13 01:34 PM)

Top
#2042856 - 03/04/13 01:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2355
Loc: UK
Actually the NU1 and also the NU1 compared to the N1 has been discussed several times over in previous threads.

If you use the search box to the left with 'NU1' you will find them, and they may prove helpful. I have an NU1 but don't know the answer to your specific question as to whether the key sensing technology is the same as the Yamaha silent system, but on one of the threads someone else states this is 'mature technology' whatever that means.

Top
#2043303 - 03/05/13 10:35 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: spanishbuddha]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
I used my Yamaha silent piano almost 90% only with headphones. The silent system was not an aftermarket system.

After my change in a different appartment I did not have any other possibility having 6 neighbors around me, all going nuts when I play. That said, I switched to a full digital.
The first was the Kawai CA63. Nice keyboard, nice sound to it, but only 2 sensors and unfortunately some problems with the key alignment on the "RM" keyboard. Fast repeating of notes almost not possible because the key has to be fully released on the Kawai.

Then I moved on to the CLP 370. And older model but allready having the natural wood keyboard and 3 sensors. Way better to play than the Kawai. I think Kawai has 3 sensors now in their new models ;-)

From what I noticed on the NU1, I did not have any problems with repeating notes very quickly or trills. But I did not have that much time to play. Compared to my CLP the keys have to be raised a bit higher on the NU1 in order to once again hit the note. Same goes with the N1. I´m not sure if Yamaha bothered to really adapt the sensor system to match the mechanics (escapement)on real pianos or grands. But then again, I did not have any real upright in the shop to compare to.
If they did not do that, then the avantgrand series cannot be compared to a real acoustic piano. Which again would be a big drawback :-(

During the next weeks I´ll visit the dealer once again and compare once again :-)

Top
#2043414 - 03/05/13 02:46 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
NU1 vs N1... At this point you might instead want to wait and see what the innovation Yamaha claims to have made to its revamped Silent system with the Quick Escapement feature, really is and brings to the problem of the less precise softer nuances playability on this kind of keyboard triggering, and maybe that'd make you think twice and get a model in the B silent family which now supports a full MIDI implementation (it was about time!...) and which are at first, and contrary to the formers, real acoustic pianos. Maybe this is where you come from, but you should really not consider the reliability issue you encountered as a common trouble on these pianos, because it is clearly not the case for most Silent users.

Top
#2043511 - 03/05/13 06:29 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
One thing I learned, the expensive and hard way, was that you'll never be contempt as the electronics will continue to get better and better in DPs. After finally getting my Kawai, I no longer wish for anything more. When I had my N1 I knew it'd be a matter of time before there was something else 'better' sonically, electronically, and mechanically than the AvantGrands. If I could do it all over again, I'd have kept my Nord Piano, never bought the AvantGrand, and saved for an acoustic. I think Kawai was very smart to launch the VPC-1. I'd have bought that in a heartbeat had I not bought my RX-2.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Top
#2043660 - 03/05/13 11:50 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: In A Silent Way]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way
NU1 vs N1... At this point you might instead want to wait and see what the innovation Yamaha claims to have made to its revamped Silent system with the Quick Escapement feature, really is and brings to the problem of the less precise softer nuances playability on this kind of keyboard triggering, and maybe that'd make you think twice and get a model in the B silent family which now supports a full MIDI implementation (it was about time!...) and which are at first, and contrary to the formers, real acoustic pianos. Maybe this is where you come from, but you should really not consider the reliability issue you encountered as a common trouble on these pianos, because it is clearly not the case for most Silent users.


Do you have any links to this?

Top
#2043663 - 03/05/13 11:54 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: PianoZac]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
One thing I learned, the expensive and hard way, was that you'll never be contempt as the electronics will continue to get better and better in DPs. After finally getting my Kawai, I no longer wish for anything more. When I had my N1 I knew it'd be a matter of time before there was something else 'better' sonically, electronically, and mechanically than the AvantGrands. If I could do it all over again, I'd have kept my Nord Piano, never bought the AvantGrand, and saved for an acoustic. I think Kawai was very smart to launch the VPC-1. I'd have bought that in a heartbeat had I not bought my RX-2.


Freudian slip?

I think you meant to say that with a digital piano, even one as expensive and over-hyped as the Yamaha Avantgrand, you will never be content...

Or, perhaps that, in the end, you will always have contempt for a dp which will become obsolete as fast as manufacturers decide to release the superior technology they are sitting on?

One last thing: Do you honestly believe that RM3 + a laptop PC + headphones would give you the same pleasure playing (and your invitees as much pleasure listening) as your genuine Kawai RX-2 Grand Piano? C'mon Zac.

Top
#2043715 - 03/06/13 02:03 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
new Yamaha Silent series : http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-i...mp;mode=compare

I shall add that I'm more than happy with my older generation Kawai AnyTime 2 upright piano, it plays fine acoustically over the years, keeping in tune very well, and the silent system with a simple MIDI port makes it the perfect keyboard. You can't beat the weight and behaviour of a complete mechanics to make you feel you're playing a real instrument, even through headphones, and even the Yamaha hybrids and Kawai great digital keyboards can't beat that.

But as today Yamaha B series goes MIDI with an escapement fix to the fact that it's silent, if I had to choose I would consider these models too, even if they sound too bright&pop to my taste.

Top
#2043740 - 03/06/13 02:55 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I found this good page as well:

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/silentpianos/

The "quick escape" feature only seems to be available on the silent grand pianos costing 20.000 euros or more.

Quote:

In every piano with a sound-muting system the hammers need to be prevented from striking the strings. This process influences the striking distance and therefore the touch and feel of the piano is affected.
To overcome this, Yamaha invented a modified grand piano action part called, QuickEscapeTM, which is standard for all Yamaha silent grand pianos. This system automatically optimizes the striking distance in acoustic and silent mode ensuring a natural touch at all times.


In addition, the polyphony on the B1 is only 64 on a 30MB sample of CFIII while the NU1 is a 256 polyphony on a 256MB sample of CFX. The B1 may have USB but it does not allow USB audio recording. It also misses a metronome, transposition capability and even a slow closing cover. The B1 is also not particularly attractive.

So, it would seem that if you are mostly going to play with headphones and want maximum digital support, then the NU1 is the better choice, while if you want to play at least as much or more time on a real acoustic piano and use the silent function for off hours or rough stage practice, the B1 might be a better choice.

Top
#2043754 - 03/06/13 04:08 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: theJourney]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
To my feeling the silent system ist electronically the same as 20 years ago...
30MB of wave memory, 64 note polyphony...nothing Yamaha should be proud about in a NEWsilent series in 2013.

The advantage of the B1 (despite the awfull looks) is it´s price tag. It costs as an acoustic piano almost the same as the NU1.
The negative: You can either play with headphones or as an acoustic. You cannot turn down the volume when playing without headphones. And it´s a bit heavier :-D

If I had my own house and had nothing to worry about I would allready have a nice grand in my living room. Unfortunately this is not possible and honestly I do not see the benefits of an acoustic if I play 90% with headphones or very quietly via speakers.

But the main question would still be which silent system is more superior. The B1 with the "new" system or the NU1 with the "kind of similar upright keyboard" with the sensor system ;-)

Of course the avantgrand series is over hyped and much too expensive. Lacking competition in this sector I did not expect anything else...


Edited by Belger1900 (03/06/13 04:13 AM)

Top
#2043782 - 03/06/13 06:27 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
rocklandpiano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/26/13
Posts: 19
Yamaha has made the dream of many pianists come true by providing them this extraordinary musical instrument...
The Yamaha CLP480 is the new classy digital piano launched by Yamaha this season. This model of Yamaha digital piano is refined with new and better technologies.
Yamaha has made the dream of many pianists come true by providing them this extraordinary musical instrument. It has a lot to offer to the pianists and ensures that they work on a fully equipped machine to fabricate ultra class musical pieces. A lot of deliberation and research has been involved by Yamaha to come up
with this exceptional model.
_________________________
Piano players in Monsey, New York have relied on Charles Flaum since before 1990 for piano tuning, piano repairs and sage piano advice. Monsey, a family oriented village in Rockland County, is full of piano lovers with cherished pianos in their homes..

Top
#2043805 - 03/06/13 08:10 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
rock: Your post reads like a sales brochure. Are you an advertising executive? smile

Top
#2043874 - 03/06/13 11:09 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: rocklandpiano]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: rocklandpiano
Yamaha has made the dream of many pianists come true by providing them this extraordinary musical instrument...
The Yamaha CLP480 is the new classy digital piano launched by Yamaha this season. This model of Yamaha digital piano is refined with new and better technologies.
Yamaha has made the dream of many pianists come true by providing them this extraordinary musical instrument. It has a lot to offer to the pianists and ensures that they work on a fully equipped machine to fabricate ultra class musical pieces. A lot of deliberation and research has been involved by Yamaha to come up
with this exceptional model.


Sorry, but your post is crap grin
I think you have no idea what the initial question was but i´m happy I could help you post your ad here wink
And after checking the rest of your posts i´m certain your more interested in hyping Yamaha instruments whistle


Edited by Belger1900 (03/06/13 11:15 AM)

Top
#2043966 - 03/06/13 02:16 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 834
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
My dream had come true and I didn't even know it.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

Top
#2044090 - 03/06/13 07:00 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: MacMacMac]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
rock: Your post reads like a sales brochure. Are you an advertising executive? smile


+1

And, don't believe everything you read.

Top
#2044279 - 03/07/13 12:18 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: Belger1900]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Belger1900
To my feeling the silent system ist electronically the same as 20 years ago...
30MB of wave memory, 64 note polyphony...nothing Yamaha should be proud about in a NEWsilent series in 2013.


Actually, you are probably not far from the truth.
The B series always had a severely limited silent system, now they have a silent system that is pretty much what the U series has had for over a decade.

Top
#2044448 - 03/07/13 10:21 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand N1 & NU 1 [Re: theJourney]
Belger1900 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Belger1900
To my feeling the silent system ist electronically the same as 20 years ago...
30MB of wave memory, 64 note polyphony...nothing Yamaha should be proud about in a NEWsilent series in 2013.


Actually, you are probably not far from the truth.
The B series always had a severely limited silent system, now they have a silent system that is pretty much what the U series has had for over a decade.


I used to have a CLP 950 back in 2002:
"How do you improve the finest? This is always the challenge facing the engineers at Yamaha....thanks to the CLP950's astonishing maximum 64-note polyphony...32MB wave memory..."

I know exactly what you mean tired yawn

Even if I do not like Kawai, I think they have done a pretty good job on their DP´s the last 3 years.
If Yamaha had put the same effort into their instruments the past years without this studpid marketing bla bla, we would all have really good digital instruments smile
But instead we have the technologie from the last decade with new marketing names and of course with adapted prices of 2013.
Congratulations Yamaha!!

Anyway I´ll have to test the NU1 in detail once again crazy

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
What do you think about the Fatar TP40 keybed?
by 3mb3r4
09/15/14 03:22 AM
Essex EGP 155 or Yamaha Gc1
by pianomom301
09/15/14 02:14 AM
More Bach (Ich Ruf Zu Dir)
by johnlewisgrant
09/15/14 12:12 AM
Incredibly short fugue
by Pencil_skirts_and_
09/14/14 10:50 PM
The piano made it home in time...
by Rich Galassini
09/14/14 10:09 PM
Who's Online
75 registered (aesop, AliAlkhiro, 36251, ahrensjt, 19 invisible), 950 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76201 Members
42 Forums
157526 Topics
2313898 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission