Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum What differences between top-notch tuner and average tuner?`

Greetings,
I don't see the machine's strict adherence to a pitch standard as being a liability. If notes are being tuned to variable pitch due to temp swings, the notes tuned from these notes can land on either side of correct, depending on what sort of temperature swing has occurred between the 2nd and 3rd note tuned. I think this self-referential aspect to pitches, applied in variable conditions, lends itself to more cumulative error than otherwise, ie, if a note is tuned in the warm cycle of a swing, then its octave is tuned in a cool cycle, the double octave will be out of control at other temps, with little to reference it with. I have tuned on stages where there was a combination of windy HVAC and nervous stage crews testing every light they had. I remember a keyboard's worth of octaves all swimming sharp and flat of where I put them, but none were so far out that they called attention to themselves.

One feature of the machine that I was never able to aurally match was its pitch change feature. I have sent a one pass pitch correction tuning into a broadcast situation, (live! we forgot to call! quick, can you tune it in an hour?) So, I had an hour to tune a C6 that was anywhere from 8 to 13 cents flat, with a top end that was almost at pitch. Flute and piano, live public radio. Plan my overpulls, punch in the corrections, use my ears, finish and all was well. I can't do that by ear alone, and I will wager the price of a tuning that there is no aural tuner that can leave a piano in 95% usuable shape from 10 cents away, in one pass.

Particularly when parts of the piano are not so far off. In order to tune it in one pass, how best to approach it when the piano is normal at the bottom, 3 cents flat at the top of the bass , 6 cents off at the break, maybe 3 cents off by mid C, 1 cent off by A5, then descending to 10 cents flat at the very top. I don't know of an aural approach that will leave the double and triple octaves within a cent of optimum without going through the piano twice, but a careful measurement with the ETD can lay out a plan of action that will leave that piano within a cent of ideal, which is far more unified in one pass than an ear can attain.

Even in situations where the maximum deviation is only 4 cents in places, can the aural tuner make the .25 cent accommodation required to leave the note exactly where it is ideal? I dont' know if there are many ears that can temper things a quarter of a cent sharper than ideal, in any sort of consistent manner. And then gradually change to smaller and smaller increments of extra tempering? Not so likely.

Machines are not to be trusted with unisons, nor to make the decision how best to tune a piano, but once given the pertinent information, on a nicely scaled instrument, it is a very rare aural tech that can out perform another aural tech armed with an ETD. The ability to measure is just too valuable to do without, and it is a shame that so many machines are being used by those that don't care to use them to fully develop a tuning, but rather, as a bypass to learning how to listen and make judgements. Aural tuning tunes the tuner as well as the instrument, but there is no need, today, to see a machine as a compromise. If pushed, they can exceed the demands of any listener I have encountered.
Regards,

Okay, I'm not sure if I'm qualified to join this discussion, but I will anyway.

I use the TuneLabPro software with my lap-top computer. I create a fresh tuning file for each piano I tune... use the same file for the same pianos. Once the file is set up (measuring for inharmonisity) I always start at A0 at tune up to C88. I used to start in the middle and work my way up then down... but I like starting at A0 and going up to C88.

On the bichords, I tune the left string with tunelab and the right string by ear; same with the tri-chords.

The biggest challenge for me is the last octave or so... I rely on the machine for more than one string per note there...

Thing is, after playing so many "out-of-tune" new pianos at dealers when I was shopping for a piano, my tunings actually sound pretty good to me...

Also, while I'm on the subject, I've enjoyed learning to tune almost as much as I've enjoyed learning to play.

Of course, I'm still in the early stages of the learning curve on both.

What is the difference between a top-notch tuner and an average tuner? The top-notch tuner's unisons will not sour after a few hours of playing.

Rick

The great tuners that use electronic tuning devices that I know, leave the piano more musical sounding than most of the working aural techs - with A spot-on 440, and wicked solid unisons. A real ET, or purposeful alternative - as opposed to the accidental "corrected to drift" random temperament that is so common with average aural techs...

You made a comment about how long it takes to learn the machine. Hence, my comment is relevant.




At the end of the day, the machine doesn't tune the piano, the person does, and that person must have the ability to manipulate the pin/string in very fine amounts.

Well, that counts in my book. I suppose I should have said "50 tunings"

Stated this way, I agree.

Rickster;
I suggest you try tuning the RIGHT string to the tunelab program, and then match the other strings. Why? Because when you shift the action with the pedal, you should be putting that right-string in synch with the upper tuning, not as the 'sounds best here' tuned unison-mate. The right-string will be sounding a lot more prominently than the left of the bichord when the piano is in 'shift' position. Reasonable?

Even with uprights, I will often choose to tune the right string to the program, and then match the unisons (in the bass, we're talking) to that right string. My (...admittedly murky) thinking is that older pianos were always tuned from the factory to the home, by an aural tuner walking DOWN the bass, not up. So the tuning of the right-hand wire is more critical to the result than the left. Consider that this means the piano was tuned at the factory, and the home, by 'favoring' the sound of the right string for most of its life. I find the result more pleasing, at least...and the reasoning works for me.

You might try that, just for fun. I will tune the bass from A0 up, as well, but then I check aurally from the break down before declaring the job done.

I remain,
Sipping the dregs,

I'll take note of that, Jeff... yes, it make plenty of sense!

Now, if I can just get out of the habit of tuning that left string first.

By the way, when I tune my pianos, I'll pound them hard for a few minutes and then critique the unisons for stability.

Piano World is a great place to learn! Always!
Thanks, Jeff!

Rick

Thank you,

Even I was overwhelmed by a lot of new words and concepts but the lesson I learn from your rich explanations is: when our piano becomes older and starts having problems here and there, then a top-notch can tune it better because he can work and rework, compensate the problems caused by the inconsistency of the piano's state.

I have an analogy to the Lasik doctor who treated my eyes. 8 years ago, he already operated more than 15000 Lasik cases, while an average Lasik doctor would have much less number. So when my little boy of 2 years spit his foods into my eyes just next day of the Lasik operation, I called Mayday to the doctor in the middle of the night. With his history of over 15000 cases, he calmly explained to me steps to do, and I was very happy because a doctor with 2000, 3000 lasik cases would not make me feel that calm. And he handled other later complications to my eyes in the same way: knowledgeable, assuring.

When the complex, out of ordinary situation happens then a skilled, top-notch will stand out and handle cases in a much better way.

Techs who are listening to fine pianos for concert and recording work use every tool available to make sure that the piano is cleanly in tune. Novice tuners who use an ETD are unaware that the aural tests are still necessary. The entire piano has to meet the testing requirements that are done in the temperament area and the unisons have to be really clean, solid and stable. The best techs are also ones that recognize that voicing affects tuning and tuning affects voicing. Badly fit unshaped hammers, incorrect strike point, uneven density of even well fit hammers, strings not seated, loose or badly placed bridge pins as well as the action regulation and damper timing all affect the result. The total piano has to be considered in the tuning, with the concert tech taking the time ( or demanding the time) to do a complete job.

I think both heh heh

Speaking of ETDs, does anyone have an opinion on this product?

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/piano_tuner_40.php

That it is not available on a pocket pc, Android, or iOS platform is a deal breaker. Totally impractical for a field technician, IMO.

That may be, but I was wondering about the technical aspect.

Their claim is that every type of piano needs a slightly different tuning due to differences in harmonics, and in order to make the tuning closest to optimal for a piano, they first measure the harmonics, before calculating the optimal tuning. This measurement is conducted only once and stored in a file, after which it is the base for all subsequent tunings.

They claim that this measurement phase is what distinguishes their software from others on the market.

I am a total novice, so it is hard to judge for me, but it does make sense. At the very least I got to realize that tuning a piano is actually a very complicated process.

Any tuners here who could comment on this software vs. what is already available?

Try searching here for Dirk, it's been discussed before.

The Dirk software sounds a lot like TuneLabPro; even the graphics are similar.

I doubt if I will every tune pianos for pay, but if I did, I'd want the best tools on the market. Good techs use the best tools!

And, I wish I had the time to hang out with Sally Phillips at Columbus State University and watch her tune and critique those Steinways!!

Rick

I have a slightly different take on this...

The best tuner is the one that meets your specific needs.

Sometimes "adequate" can be best, when you consider the big picture... price, availability, personality, etc. (and not just regarding piano tuners )

I think the best strategy is to define exactly what your needs are. Then, look for a tuner-tech that can meet those specific needs. IMO

ED FOOTE,
Thanks for quoting me. I did not mean for my post to be seen as contrary of yours. I was only trying to add my observations of how some machine tuners work and how the public reacts. The public sometimes does not react logically to tuning problems they encounter when assessing between machine and aural tuners. Your skills and protocols are of the highest professionalism, your clients are fortunate to have you.

The two issues I addressed regarding pitch drift and un-centered stretch curves are ignored by the marketers of tuning instruments when they tutor their customers. Pianists notice these things though in the conditions I listed and often blame the machine! The same problems can be produced by aural tuning alone yet pianists are likely to be more forgiving. Go figure how prejudices twist things!

Another difference is that a top-notch tech will know which problems are due to the tuning and which are due to other causes. Machines do not know the difference.

When you look behind the screens I think you will find they differ. Dirk's tuner works as PianistinJapan says whereas the TuneLab Pro 4.0 manual describes inharmonicity curves and selecting 6:3 or 4:2 etc. during a tuning.

You can also use Dirk's tuner to assess the tuning of a piano. Play all the notes, compute the optimum, compare actual to optimum. This may be of more interest to owners than technicians.