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#2043270 - 03/05/13 09:28 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
No, I'm not sure bout it. Your observed reality takes precedence over mine.

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#2043457 - 03/05/13 04:20 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
A vacuum cannot, by definition, hold any water vapor...


Marty, when someone mentions "vacuum" in applied science as an example, it is assumed that it refers to a partial vacuum. There is no known method or device to create a perfect vacuum. The point being made was that air is not a necessary ingredient needed for water vapour to exist or "be held". Outer space contains a few molecules of hydrogen/cubic meter but no air. Near earth, water would instantly boil and then freeze if exposed to space. Comets release water vapour into space when they travel near the sun. Process is called sublimation and it is in fact a solid (ice)from the comet which leaves the trail in vapour form...the same way that dry ice sublimates into our atmosphere if exposed.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2043465 - 03/05/13 04:27 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7235
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Marty, when someone mentions "vacuum" in applied science as an example, it is assumed that it refers to a partial vacuum.

I was making no applied assumption. I was stating from definition. It was offered as agreement to Mark's statement.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2043615 - 03/05/13 10:03 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Mwm]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 466
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Mwm
No, I'm not sure bout it. Your reality takes precedence over mine.


"Observed reality" can indeed be subjective! That's why I'm partial to "objective reality". To have a little grasp of it now and then (through intense observation and reflection) is very salutary. Not as good as knowing the absolute truth, mind you, but better than slipping on a real or imagined banana peel!

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#2043642 - 03/05/13 11:00 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Marty, when someone mentions "vacuum" in applied science as an example, it is assumed that it refers to a partial vacuum.

I was making no applied assumption. I was stating from definition. It was offered as agreement to Mark's statement.

Because a perfect vacuum is unobtainable its exact definition is multifaceted like many other words in english...not singular...


n. vac·u·um
1.
a. Absence of matter.
b. A space empty of matter.
c. A space relatively empty of matter.
d. A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure.
2. A state of emptiness; a void.
3. A state of being sealed off from external or environmental influences; isolation.
4. pl. vac·uums A vacuum cleaner.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or used to create a vacuum.
2. Containing air or other gas at a reduced pressure.
3. Operating by means of suction or by maintaining a partial vacuum.


Edited by Emmery (03/05/13 11:00 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2043721 - 03/06/13 02:15 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Emmery]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1936
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Emmery
n. vac·u·um
1.
a. Absence of matter.
b. A space empty of matter.
c. A space relatively empty of matter.
d. A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure.
2. A state of emptiness; a void.
3. A state of being sealed off from external or environmental influences; isolation.
4. pl. vac·uums A vacuum cleaner.


[tongue in cheek alert]

5. Collective term for everything that nature abhors.
6. A more or less painful intra-cranial condition experienced after reading (or before contributing to) some threads on internet forums.


Edited by Mark R. (03/06/13 02:17 AM)
Edit Reason: added alert for humor-resistant readers.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2043777 - 03/06/13 06:16 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Emmery]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 466
Loc: canada

Because a perfect vacuum is unobtainable its exact definition is multifaceted like many other words in english...not singular...

I'd put it this way: that we use the word "vacuum" in many different senses to refer to many different things, theories, and concepts.

One use of the word is scientific, and that use (as we've now apparently discovered) is not completely compatible with its non-scientific usages.

The question\dispute, therefore doesn't really pertain to the nature of a vacuum, but to what we mean when we use the word.

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#2043780 - 03/06/13 06:27 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1918
Loc: Suffolk, England




"I don't know what you mean by 'vacuum'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But 'vacuum' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper some of them- particularly verbs: they're the proudest- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI


Edited by Withindale (03/06/13 06:32 AM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2043823 - 03/06/13 08:36 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7235
Loc: Rochester MN


And all of this started because I liked Mark's comparison of a vacuum and a cow's fart!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2043829 - 03/06/13 08:44 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1918
Loc: Suffolk, England
Nothing like raising the tone!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2043832 - 03/06/13 08:48 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7235
Loc: Rochester MN
All hail CH4!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2043847 - 03/06/13 09:46 AM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
Originally Posted By: Mwm
No, I'm not sure bout it. Your reality takes precedence over mine.


"Observed reality" can indeed be subjective! That's why I'm partial to "objective reality". To have a little grasp of it now and then (through intense observation and reflection) is very salutary. Not as good as knowing the absolute truth, mind you, but better than slipping on a real or imagined banana peel!


Good point. The "objective reality" vacuum exists only in the mind as a representation of the "observed reality" of a partial vacuum. All this is moot, however, unless your piano is happy in its constant 42% RH environment. I may live in a live in a vacuum as implied by some posters, but, oh wait, then it isn't a vacuum. I'm so confused.

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#2043946 - 03/06/13 01:43 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 466
Loc: canada
The "objective reality" vacuum exists only in the mind as a representation of the "observed reality" of a partial vacuum.

Objective reality "in the mind"? I'll buy that, as long as we allow that the proverbial "tree falling in the woods" really does fall there in some independent-of-mind sense, and that the event is not entirely a convenient fiction to explain our belief in its really falling.

You have to allow me that; otherwise that beautiful concept of my piano existing happily at 42% RH might be something less than independently real and certain:

"All this is moot, however, unless your piano is happy in its constant 42% RH environment."

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#2043968 - 03/06/13 02:22 PM Re: Temperature vs Humidity [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
We're back to Alice I think. The tree falling question is - Does it make a sound, if no one is there to hear it? We have to define "sound". If we call it a repeating cycle of compressions and rarefactions, then it probably does make a sound, just as some stars are made by that type of sound in galaxies, according to the latest theories. However, if we choose to give sound a meaning beyond that, such the requirement for a piano, when played, to be heard, not just seen, then perhaps not. When I play the piano, my playing "sounds" perfect to me, as my mind fills in the errors and inconsistancies in the playing. I become a legend in my own mind. However, when I record myself playing, it generally sounds to me like s**t!

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