Hey -

I have a few questions about the pedals on my piano. I have a W. Hoffmann upright - I'm not sure how much that matters.

1) My main question is - is there an easy way to adjust the tension on a pedal? My problem is that when I rest my feet on the pedals, they fall down too easily, which is resulting in me having to hold my feet up while I'm playing. I believe that this may be creating unnecessary tension in my legs and back. I want to make it harder to depress the pedals, so I can rest my feet on the pedals without having to hold the pedals up with my leg muscles.

2) How far should a pedal go down from its starting point before it stops and is completely depressed? Mine goes down at least an inch (at the tips of the pedals). Is this standard or does it differ for every piano? Can this be changed? It seems inefficient to have to move the pedals this much.

3) How high off the ground is a pedal supposed to be when it is not depressed? Is this the same for most or all pianos?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm wondering if these things can be altered and if I can do it myself or need a technician to come take care of it. I'm a bit worried that I will need to get a new piano to solve the problem. Thanks.

I am surprised your questions have not already been answered! I will quickly give you a suggestion or two on your piano's needs.

1. Tension; Yes, your pedal trapwork can be altered. The simplest method to increase the resistance would be to add a spring to the system, under the trapwork or the pedal itself, and give you a reasonable increase in 'springiness', for lack of a better word! A little more trouble, but certainly doable, would be to change the leverage of the trapwork by shifting the position of the fulcrum it currently uses, but that will also change the amount of 'throw' it gives the mechanism and would have to be considered more carefully.

2. How far down? As far as needed to insure that the dampers clear the strings, and it doesn't hit the floor! If your dampers are well-adjusted and even in lift, then a firm felt (such as a hammer shaving) can be used to stop the travel of the pedal. But, 'an inch' of travel is not excessive at all. Whacking into the carpet or floor would be excessive...

The other pedal(s) require at least a certain minimum to do their jobs, too. The soft-pedal on an upright should move the hammer rail about 1/2-way to the strings, limiting that throw might involve changing the geometry..again, not something to try on your own.

3. How high should the pedals be? Varies wildly across the manufacturing world, boss. Can't give you an answer on that one. If your pedals have a felt cushion at the top of the opening, and a felt cushion at the bottom (find it with a finger under the pedal through the opening), and they are not deeply worn, or just flat missing, your pedals are likely sitting just where they ought to be. There is no standard height for pedals that I've ever heard of. But...they can all be changed by altering the felt cushions that limit the travel, at least a little, to please your feet and back!

I do suggest you have a technician address your concerns, the local hobby shop or fabric store is not likely to have felt that is dense enough to use in altering the pedal travel, and certainly will not have the standard trapwork springs that your technician will likely have in his 'kit' out in the truck or car!

Hope that helps,
Sincerely,

The sustain pedal works as the one in your car.

The flat dampers must leave the strings around 5 mm, on a vertical, I have some precise data somewhere. the end of the move is regulated only by the cloth thickness (under the pedal)
so with time it is possible that one need to change the cloth, or even simply add a layer. If the spring weakedn it can be changed, or modified, or another spirng added, but be careful, steel springs are highly non linear,they can be too strong easily, bronze springs are way better for pedals (they are softer)

I only can find them at piano parts provider, for grands steel springs are also not the best choice (even if one can be find in Steinways).

The short answer is that the height of pedals and the amount of tension on them are set in the design and the placement of the piano, and not adjustable. Even the same model will feel different due to the surface that the piano is on, or if there are different casters. So if your foot is inadvertently pressing on it when you play, you should learn to control your foot properly, because if you are having trouble on this piano, you will have trouble on others.

Thanks for the help.

I was looking at my damper pedal again. The pedal moves downward about an inch before it actually engages the dampers, then it moves about another inch before it almost hits the carpet for a total of about 2 inches. It seems like a piece of felt had fallen out from above the pedal. I put the felt piece back in and it is now stopping the pedal about 1/2 of an inch from the top of its vertical motion, so it now moves a total of about 1 1/2 inches.

This seems to work much better. I can rest my foot on the pedal without as much of a problem with holding my foot up. I think it's still a bit weak at the top, though. Also, to fully depress the pedal, it seems to take too much effort - in other words, there is too much tension at the bottom of the motion, as well as a bit of a squeaking sound. I'm thinking that perhaps I should also put something below the pedal if I can do so without affecting the sound.

Inside the piano, there is a vertical metal bar (with an S-shaped twist in the middle) which connects the horizontal pedal with the horizontal wooden lever bar. There are two bolts that are connected to this metal bar, which can be tightened. What would be the effect of tightening them? I'm wondering if they have come loose over time.



It doesn't seem to me that the damper pedal tension should be so weak that I can't rest my foot on the pedal without depressing it, unless I engage my leg and back muscles to hold my foot up. That doesn't seem normal or correct to me - but I don't know much about how pedals are supposed to work - maybe I'm wrong. Also, I would think that it is difficult to pedal quickly when I have to move my foot up and down 2 full inches each time - I would think that less of a range would allow for quicker pedal changes.

I took some pictures, but I'm not sure how to post them...

Resting your foot on the pedal enough that the pedal is depressed is as bad form as resting your fingers on the keys enough that they are depressed, and have the same bad results.

While there seems to be no standard height of pedals, there is certainly a range where pedaling is comfortable. Raising a piano on caster cups thicker than 1/2", for example, or changing out the casters with taller ones, can lead to problems.

A nice pedal height is somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5". Surprisingly, on some new and decent pianos, pedal height is uncomfortably high.

I suppose I would agree that you generally do not want to be pressing your fingers into the keyboard inadvertently. I would think, however, that, in some cases, a keyboard action could be too weak. For example, I would think that if a feather falling onto a keyboard was sufficient to depress the keys and trigger hammers to strike the strings, then the action needs to be heavier.

Thanks. I guess my pedal is about 2" high (not depressed), so it falls about in the middle of that range. With the felt piece wedged in above the pedal - it's about 1.5" to 1.75" high.

The height if too much can be corrected, then on both pedals for visual.

Or with a small plank under your feet.

The resistance must be enough so your foot can "float" on the pedal, and the luttle play before the pedal is effective allows to avoid mistakes.

Your pedal possibly act yet a little late. There is a bolt on the back of Pedals inside the case. Screwing them make the pedal stronger and sooner. Leave some play, same as a car.
The bottoming is just stoped by a thick cloth inside the aperture, so at last you will need some 2/8 inches felt to raise that thickness by adding layers (the same for the rest position.

Glue only the back half of the squares of felt you may add . A new cloth of the good thickness would be ideal , it is changed from time to time, exactly for the problems you state , plus noises.
Nothing a curious enough person could not make himself but finding the cloth may be difficult. Piece of fabrics folded and glued together on their half, could do the trick... Your technician could have some if you ask him beforehand, and having the good thickness, not always. Unless he regularely repair pianos.

My 20 years W Hoffmann :
Height around 95 mm move around 55 mm (both are too much) the piano have casters
My 25 years W Hoffmann mod 114 :

Height 55 mm bottoms at 15 mm . The cloth I installed are not thick enough by 2 mm, but it is Ok

The pedal when fully pushed may not raise the dampers much more than tge keys. A little only.

Thanks for this info. I didn't know this. It's useful to know.

On uprights it is not a big deal. On most uprights, the pedal will raise the dampers higher than the keys will, and no player is the wiser. Grands - a different story....

Yes no big deal but not to be really excessive. if they move twice the amount with the key for instance .I have data about that somewhere.

This reads to me like the pedal nut requires tightening to take up the lost motion in the right pedal rod.

In some uprights if the pedal rod has lost motion, the pedal will drop just by touching it.

Also the OP mentions that the pedal goes down almost to full extension before the dampers lift. That is another indication of pedal adjustment.

If the OP puts something under the pedal to stop travel there is a good chance the dampers will fail to lift at all. I believe the pedal set in this case is way out of adjustment.

For photos they can also be uploaded to a photo service and a link posted here. Picasa3,Dropbox, Photobucket, if that one is still around; lots of them available online for no charge.

Thanks Olek.

I was curious about tightening the nuts on the bolt attached to the pedal, but there is a nut on the bottom that's really hard to get to. Unfortunately, I don't have a ratchet that will work on it. I would just need to hold the bottom nut in place, and then I could tighten the top nut by hand. (I tried turning the top nut, but the bottom nut is just spinning around so nothing is accomplished.) I thought of going to pick up a ratchet. I'm not sure what the size of the nut on the bottom is. My guess is that it would be metric. I'm hoping a technician will call me back tomorrow - Maybe they will be able to give me some guidance.

number ten or 3/8ths should work.

Use vice-drips on the rod, push down on the lever, and use another pair of pliers to unseize the top nut.

Ugh. Can't get drop box to work. Maybe because it's https?

Anyway, vice grips on the rod are a good idea. That way I don't have to go out and buy a ratchet. Not sure if I would need to tighten the bottom nut for any reason, though. Thanks.

I guess I can just post links to the photos.

Here are the links to the pics -

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

The second and third pictures show the piece of felt that I stuck into the top part above the pedal.

The bottom nut is probably part of the rod, you can't tighten it. You can hold on to it. Probably... Vice grips or just needle nose pliers with strong hands.

Pushing down on the lever so that the rod sticks out is more important, to find out what is actually happening .

Thanks - I'm going to try the vice grips and see what happens...

By the way, I'm not clear on why I'm supposed to push down on the lever. What do you mean by the lever? Is that the long wooden bar that goes across? I guess I could push it down when I turn the top nut. The top nut doesn't seem to be stuck, so I think I can just turn it.

Yes, push down on the long wooden lever, while holding the pedal and the rod up. I usually do it with my left hand. Palm on the lever and fingers underneath the pedal. Squeeze until the nut goes up.

A lot easier to turn the nut with no pressure on it.

Ok. Yeah - I'm tightening the top nut now, after pushing down on the lever. Now when I fully depress the pedal, the dampers are going way past where pressing a key puts them. I guess I need to stop the pedal underneath now by putting something under it - so that the dampers go about to where pressing a key brings them to? I had to take the felt out of the top because the dampers were still lifted when the pedal hit the felt on the top once I tightened the top nut.

Yes

The hard felts that people use under chairs and furniture on hardwood floors work great.

Wow - I can't believe this is working. I'm really excited! Thanks.

I have a piece of felt that fell out of the opening that the pedal goes into (not sure where it came off though). So I put a piece of folded paper under that. Seems to be working ok for now.

I tightened the top nut as far as it would go, but I guess the dampers are slightly uneven because some notes have a good staccato and others are bleeding a bit. I guess I need to loosen the top screw a bit until I get a good staccato from all the notes?

If the dampers take off too soon, you tightened the nut too much. If the pedal was too high for your taste, you need to add felt at the top, and loosen the nut.

Are you mechanically inclined?

Yes you tightened it too much. The pedals need "some" lost motion, much like the rest of the action. Call your tech for the rest, pedals are easy!