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#2259379 - 04/09/14 10:09 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Portato has a slur over it.
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#2259521 - 04/10/14 05:53 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I wonder if I should learn this transcription.


Well, yes. Yes, you should ... would love to hear you play it, if you do.

I will try this trick with the thumb (never even thought of it.) I'd been trying to just bring all fingers in my LH close to the fall board, to minimize the stretch. I can hit all the notes this way, but still an awkward stretch.



Oh, and please help yourself to a piece of cake, everyone. It is in celebration of my recent admittance to the 1000 post member club.

I am still working on my acceptance speech for the banquet tonight. Can't think of anyone to Thank ...


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#2275692 - 05/13/14 08:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
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How is the Beethoven going?
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#2275715 - 05/13/14 09:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
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Actually fine, Thank you for asking. Of course you knew I was going to have trouble with the next two chords.

OK Smarty, what are you going to suggest here? grin

As I was saying earlier, I will be going slowly. But I think I am starting to get ansy about moving along. I've spent a good deal of time on this bit. Beginning to sound nice.
I have not been learning a lot of new material lately. Just this and one other. But, both are hard. I need to pick up the pace a little bit. I will, but not yet smile.

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#2275737 - 05/13/14 09:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Actually fine, Thank you for asking. Of course you knew I was going to have trouble with the next two chords.

OK smarty, what are you going to suggest here? grin

Which two chords are we talking about?
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#2275744 - 05/13/14 10:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
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OK, let me just take a look. I thought you knew.

We are up to M33, right? M35, LH Gb, Db, Bb (sorry 1 chord)

I'll just drop one. Which one? Can I roll it? I haven't been working at this much, but know its coming. I'd prefer to stop working here at a logical point and pick up elsewhere. I was intending to ask about this.

Can you suggest, where to stop and where to go next?



Edited by Greener (05/13/14 10:13 PM)

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#2275747 - 05/13/14 10:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Can I roll it?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Greener
I'd prefer to stop working here at a logical point and pick up elsewhere. I was intending to ask about this.

Can you suggest, where to stop and where to go next?

52 seems a logical place to stop, being a sectional division. Where to go next - perhaps the trio?
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#2275794 - 05/14/14 12:28 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I'm seeing measures and sections but this thread is confusing. Has analysis of a piece started again? Liszt and Beethoven?

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#2275802 - 05/14/14 01:11 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Greener is working on the Liszt transcription of the third movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony.
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#2275809 - 05/14/14 01:31 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I see. Thanks for explaining.

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#2275966 - 05/14/14 02:15 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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There was a lot going on in April so I only caught up to this thread last night. This is the ABF and by definition we're all trying to learn and patch holes in what we know. Mine are in the area of names of pieces, composers, genres, musical form etc. There is actually a lot there potentially for learning and discussing where this thread first started up again. I made a kind of list of anyone is interested. The discussion as it has evolved now, even if we find the score in IMSLP, I'm not sure we can do much with it as a group except watch. But potentially there are things that fit right in the purpose of the ABF and this thread.

Shall I post my ideas?

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#2275973 - 05/14/14 02:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
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Originally Posted By: keystring

Shall I post my ideas?

Yes, please.

This could help us, also in choosing next themed recital theme, yes? possibly? Seems anything 20th century related will run into copyright issues. So, maybe we will need to go back to Bach the beginning.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Where to go next - perhaps the trio?


K, thanks ... I'll report back in a couple of months cool

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#2276246 - 05/14/14 11:27 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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keystring, I think you would get more participants in discussing your proposed topics if you started a new thread or threads for them.
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#2276447 - 05/15/14 11:38 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Let me look briefly at keystring's post, which confused me a little:

Originally Posted By: keystring
we're all trying to learn and patch holes in what we know. Mine are in the area of names of pieces...

So - you don't know enough pieces? Or you have trouble remembering the names of those you do know? Or something else?

Originally Posted By: keystring
...composers...

Same question. Does this mean you want to become familiar with more composers?

Originally Posted By: keystring
...genres...

Same question again; I'm not clear on what it means that "genres are a hole in your knowledge."
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#2276493 - 05/15/14 01:01 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: keystring

Shall I post my ideas?

Yes, please.


Ok, here goes smile

Where this thread starts up again, Polyphonist takes up a post by Dire Tonic with a link to a performance. Dire's point had been voices being brought out. It's followed by:

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist-April 4
Godowsky is a genius, for sure. He made countless arrangements, transcriptions, and paraphrases, all of very high quality. One could even make the case that this particular one exceeds the original.


If this were the Pianist forum, everyone would be expected to be up on everything in there and just grab a point or two. But it's the ABF, and we're learners. The thread started to help us get at some rather basic things. As such, that beginning is quite rich.

- The announcer in the clip tells us that it's "Moments musicaux no. 3" by Schubert. I looked it up and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_moments_musicaux_(Schubert)

So we have Schubert doing something with a piece by Beethoven. Already we have for exploration: the nature of Schubert's music (and Schubert), that of Beethoven's music (and the composer); the original by Beethoven, the particular "Moment musical" by Schubert pertaining to it - getting at what's in each in order to see (hear) how one relates to the other. Remembering that we are learners, and some of us may know close to squat about any or several of these things.

Like many people who came to formal music education late in life, I have barn-size doors in some areas, mixed with major strengths in others. For me, for whatever reason in my life, it's in the area of composers, pieces, genres. When I was small entire passages swam through my head which I might hum or pick out at will, but no names attached themselves to them. That subject area is in here: Schubert, Beethoven, the particular pieces, comparing them, and who knows.

Here is another that I grabbed yesterday:
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist-April 4
Godowsky is a genius, for sure. He made countless arrangements, transcriptions, and paraphrases, all of very high quality. One could even make the case that this particular one exceeds the original.

It piqued my interest in Godowsky. (Again my weakness with names, people, works etc.) Ofc I can looking him up on my own and find more of what he did. Discussing particular arrangements that people find especially good could be the subject of a separate thread.

Polyphonist, what is a "paraphrase" musically?

I highlighted this yesterday while going through this year's part of the thread:
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I was going to write what my favorite sections are, but now I realize I can't because I really like them all. I'll just give one example; the descending RH alto line from 1:40 to 1:46. Beautiful. And then that luscious Brahmsian setting of the return of the first section at 2:01.

Listening to those particular lines is my own homework - it's been set out for me. But now we have another composer - Brahms. I'm familiar with Brahms in a general vague kind of way, and before going deeply into music, I sang in a "Brahms choir" for a year. But like everything else, it's vague and spotty.

Is it possible, if you are deeply familiar with works, to bring out examples of works and passages by Brahms that are most like this Schubert in question, so we can really hear what a "luscious Brahmsian setting" means?

Here's one that I set up as "homework" for myself:
Originally Posted By: Dire Tonic
If anyone is interested, to make it a little easier to focus on the legato Iíve modified the first two pages to highlight Kissinís countermelodies Ė Moment Musical for dummiesÖIf I can get through those Iíll finish the exercise.


That score is still up there and I will definitely be bringing this to the piano.

Finally there is the "number 5" of Moments musicaux that Greener is working on, where we see exploration of various passages as areas of playing difficulty. That can't lead to much discussion by the group, but are there things about the 5th "Moment" that would be a good area to explore?

PianoStudent88 wrote this morning about starting new threads. My thought presently is that some of it is good for new threads, while some of it actually expands or brings out elements in this discussion.

So that's it, in the raw.

Sorry for not answering right away, Greener. I freelance, and right after posting I was hit with two projects, with both clients calling them urgent - so that's what I was doing. This is my "break". smile

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#2276498 - 05/15/14 01:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keystring
So we have Schubert doing something with a piece by Beethoven.

I don't see Beethoven coming into the equation. It's Godowsky arranging a piece by Schubert.

Originally Posted By: keystring
Polyphonist, what is a "paraphrase" musically?

An arrangement, typically a complicated one, of a work or group of themes.

Originally Posted By: keystring
Is it possible, if you are deeply familiar with works, to bring out examples of works and passages by Brahms that are most like this Schubert in question, so we can really hear what a "luscious Brahmsian setting" means?

I wasn't thinking of any Brahms works in particular. I meant that that particular passage exemplifies a quasi-Brahmsian style.
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#2276529 - 05/15/14 02:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: keystring
So we have Schubert doing something with a piece by Beethoven.

I don't see Beethoven coming into the equation. It's Godowsky arranging a piece by Schubert.

You wrote about it very recently.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Greener is working on the Liszt transcription of the third movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony.

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#2276546 - 05/15/14 02:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: keystring
So we have Schubert doing something with a piece by Beethoven.

I don't see Beethoven coming into the equation. It's Godowsky arranging a piece by Schubert.

You wrote about it very recently.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Greener is working on the Liszt transcription of the third movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony.

But where does Schubert come into that one?
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#2276564 - 05/15/14 03:40 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

But where does Schubert come into that one?

It doesn't - you've just witnessed my weakness. I mix up names. I don't know if it is part of that background I'm overcoming where I'm catching up to lots of things name-wise, or a disability with names in general, because I've been known to say that the traffic light has turned blue instead of green. Liszt turned into Schubert. For a long time they were just "many names". I wouldn't mix up Beethoven and Mozart, because each of them have a strong musical association for me. Other names still do and you just caught one such slip.

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#2276570 - 05/15/14 03:46 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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I've had a strange idea that might help you. Why not take a theme from each composer and get to know it very well. Then, when you hear that composer's name, you can associate it with that theme, and use the themes to distinguish them. That would turn a linguistic issue into a musical issue, which it seems it would be easier for you to resolve.

Then again, this might all be nonsense, in which case please inform me and I will remove it.
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#2276585 - 05/15/14 04:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I think that you should keep the suggestion, because it will be helpful to lot of people. What seems to work for me is to immerse myself in something so that the character attaches itself to the name. Associations don't work for me because they seem to cross-pollinate. In part I simply have to make up for lost time.

I started learning my 6th language after 30 years of not learning any new language, and did it in a much different way. I linked it with experiences, for example a friend inviting you for coffee, or references to "warm water" in a lake while going out with friends are words I won't forget. In contrast, my weakest language is Russian, where we memorized endless vocabulary lists in university as well as going so fast through the books that there was no time to absorb the language (we covered 3 university years in a single year, and at the end only native Russians plus myself were in the course). The experience and sensation based learning of language 6 was almost effortless. When I finally studied grammar, the patterns were already there.

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#2276586 - 05/15/14 04:25 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I've highlighted a bunch of things in my initial long post, with the idea that someone might want to jump on one or two of the aspects (or not).

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#2276598 - 05/15/14 05:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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keystring, can you provide a link to your "initial long post", or date of when you posted it? I'm not sure which post you mean.
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#2276613 - 05/15/14 05:57 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
keystring, can you provide a link to your "initial long post", or date of when you posted it? I'm not sure which post you mean.

It's my first post of today in this thread.

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#2276668 - 05/15/14 07:57 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Online   content
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All right, I'll reply regarding Godowsky:

Originally Posted By: keystring
It piqued my interest in Godowsky. (Again my weakness with names, people, works etc.) Ofc I can looking him up on my own and find more of what he did. Discussing particular arrangements that people find especially good could be the subject of a separate thread.

Godowsky is a very underrated composer whose genius really needs to be more appreciated; therefore, I never pass up an opportunity to talk about him. For a total newcomer, his Walzermasken and Triakontameron are a good place to start (and perhaps to stay for quite a while - there are 54 pieces between the two sets!). Godowsky's other major solo works include the Sonata, the Passacaglia (on a theme by Schubert), and the 12-piece Java Suite.

Also, keystring and I discussed a possible new topic today via private message - the study of instrumentation in the Beethoven third piano concerto. We would post some performances to the thread, decide on a passage to analyze, and discuss the roles of the various instruments and how they interact with the solo part.

Any thoughts?
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#2277083 - 05/16/14 03:38 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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No interest?

Here are some performances:













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#2277126 - 05/16/14 05:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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I'm interested, but I think it would do better on a new thread where more people would see it and perhaps participate.
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#2277133 - 05/16/14 05:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Possibly. Will you start the new thread or shall I?
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#2277169 - 05/16/14 06:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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You. Or keystring, if she'd like.
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#2277273 - 05/16/14 11:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Online   content
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I saw this post earlier but couldn't reply because I had to rush away and do something. Keystring is very busy with work at the moment, so I will post the thread momentarily.
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