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#2282831 - 05/29/14 03:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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I've been sidetracked by the concerto thread. My interest still stands in the things I outlined before, which stem from the April discussions. I haven't been able to get back to them yet.

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#2282833 - 05/29/14 04:00 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Are you talking about your long post? I made a reply to part of it, but I think you missed it.
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Polyphonist

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#2282894 - 05/29/14 06:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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Yes. Since there is discussion in the Beethoven thread about "what to do" - that is what I will be doing.

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#2282949 - 05/29/14 08:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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What is what you will be doing? Would you give us a concise one or two paragraph summary of what you wish the course of this thread to be in the near future?
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Polyphonist

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#2283004 - 05/29/14 10:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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Personally I'm working on each of the things I outlined, which are things that were touched on in April, and as I get to them I'll post them.

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#2283006 - 05/29/14 10:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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I see.
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Polyphonist

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#2283245 - 05/30/14 10:50 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...please try to ask questions in manageable quantities - one or two at a time, not a whole page full. Those posts usually overwhelm me with material and I end up not trying to reply to them.
I see the conversation started in the concerto thread has moved over to here and I'm going to rephrase my questions so as not to overwhelm.

Question 1. How about you put out a feeler post to gather the likely level of interest?
Comment: This might get some discussion as to what the survey might entail, like how closely we'll be looking at selected pieces, and what they might be.

Question 2. What's the purpose of your doing it?
Comment: You might be teaching analysis or just doing it. You might be looking at each sonata as a milestone or landmark in sonata writing or simply an interesting piece of music on its own. You might be looking at learning to play it and adding practical ideas as to how to go about it. You might have some other purpose.
_________________________
Richard

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#2283252 - 05/30/14 11:27 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Question 1. How about you put out a feeler post to gather the likely level of interest?
Comment: This might get some discussion as to what the survey might entail, like how closely we'll be looking at selected pieces, and what they might be.

I posted about a possible course of study in the Beethoven thread. As for how closely we'll be looking at pieces, it depends individually on each piece. We will look at it as its own entity and also in its historical context. I already play most of these pieces, so I can offer advice on learning them if that is desired.

For example, we might post some recordings of a Rachmaninoff sonata, discuss the form, and then find parallels between it and similar works by Rachmaninoff's predecessors, successors, and contemporaries.
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Polyphonist

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#2283265 - 05/30/14 11:51 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I saw your list in the concerto thread - but it's your list. I see the chronology. It's a bit more than the path we have mapped out here but I don't see a greater connection between pieces.

Your post doesn't answer question 1 regarding the level of interest out there. If there's enough interest we can generate a list of pieces depending on what those interests are.

Nor does it answer question 2 and, before I get on board with it, I'd like to know what your interest is. Is it something to discuss with like minded friends, a discourse on history, teaching...?
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Richard

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#2283269 - 05/30/14 11:56 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Your post doesn't answer question 1 regarding the level of interest out there. If there's enough interest we can generate a list of pieces depending on what those interests are.

I think there's enough information already to ascertain the level of interest. As to my own interests, this would be supplementing my own study, and if we can move along at a good enough pace with some competency, I will hopefully learn something as well.
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Polyphonist

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#2283318 - 05/30/14 01:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
move along at a good enough pace with some competency

Sounds like the Pianist Corner is the right place for such a thread.
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#2283319 - 05/30/14 01:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...I will hopefully learn something as well.
Well, pick me up and wipe me down! I did not expect to see that! wink

But if you're happy that the forum has enough interest to supplement your study with the sonatas you've already listed and are able to move along apace - competently - then I suggest you get right on it and we can board up the windows here.

Now, where did I leave my hammer...? wink
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#2283320 - 05/30/14 01:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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The sonata thread was conceived by a group of about four individuals, of which I was one. We tried to give it direction, but also aimed to be flexible. We're a disparate group with all kinds of backgrounds, so to some degree you have to feel your way along.

The general idea was to start with some basic groundwork, simpler musical forms, then up to the sonata and sonata-allegro, for which we started with sonatinas. These took quite a while because there was a lot of underlying knowledge that got filled in along the way.

Now I'm seeing the proposal of a potential list of pieces that everyone would vote on. I don't have thoughts on that presently.


Edited by keystring (05/30/14 01:59 PM)
Edit Reason: shortened

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#2283330 - 05/30/14 01:33 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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The very first thing I saw when I checked on this thread originally was the performance of Godowski's arrangement of Schubert's Moment Musical (one of the Moments musicaux). There is also a score by Dire tonic, highlighting particular notes that were brought out - this bringing out of significant notes was also a discussion that was begun in the previous year.

The April posts plopped these various interesting subjects but not much was done with any of them. I wasn't able to be around that month. In this one topic we have two things:
- Schubert's original piece
- What Godowski did with it.
I don't know how easy it is to draw out what is in the two pieces and how they relate because the idea of it is new to me - can we (according to our disparate abilities) do it by ear? by comparing scores? by examining the scores. This caught my interest.


Edited by keystring (05/30/14 02:54 PM)
Edit Reason: shortened

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#2283374 - 05/30/14 03:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
move along at a good enough pace with some competency

Sounds like the Pianist Corner is the right place for such a thread.

I knew I was going to get told that, but the problem is I really don't think a thread like that would work in the PC. Plus, although the people there are generally more knowledgeable than here (although most of them know a lot less than they think they do), I find that the extramusical maturity of the members here is quite a bit higher. The PC is currently overrun with young hotshots who think they know it all.
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Polyphonist

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#2283379 - 05/30/14 03:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Registered: 06/16/11
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It would be useful to clarify expectations for participants in the thread, then. In the ABF, it would be reasonable for it to attract participants who are learning and will make it move at a slower pace, and with less competency than what you might expect to be reasonable for people interested in the topic. If you don't welcome people to participate without some certain level of ability, or if you plan to move at a certain pace regardless, then make that explicit at the start of the thread. Or if it really is to be an open thread, then think through what that means in terms of how the thread may proceed.
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#2283383 - 05/30/14 03:45 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Another idea would be to have two different threads for the same topic for members of different skill levels. This would make it easier for each thread to cater to all its participants.
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Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2283401 - 05/30/14 04:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Another idea would be to have two different threads for the same topic for members of different skill levels. This would make it easier for each thread to cater to all its participants.

That would be almost impossible.

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#2283414 - 05/30/14 05:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2458
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Another idea would be to have two different threads for the same topic for members of different skill levels. This would make it easier for each thread to cater to all its participants.
I understand the draw this would have for you but I'd be against it because of the duplication and the development of a two tiered audience. I'd say it's better to be a little patient and allow more participants.

A good meal isn't about what you eat it's about who you eat it with.

I know you'd prefer to make progress but think about it; there's nothing stopping you moving on at your own pace and being in a better position to answer questions further down the line. If you're hoping to learn something as well, the extra thinking time of going slowly may prove to be a worthwhile addition to your analytical arsenal.

When we kicked off after the Clementi we worked in tranches of three pieces. If there was any followers not actively involved in the thread the easier material accompanying the sonatas may well have been useful and understandable but seeing the more advanced topics piques interest and motivates learning. If there's a good spread of easy and harder pieces it gives everyone at least something to chew on every so often and knowledge and understanding can grow by osmosis.

Never in this series of threads has anyone been made to feel as though they're interrupting anything. We've always been happy to stop and answer questions, offer practical advice to anyone wanting to learn anything outside our selected pieces, go back to earlier pieces or discuss topics off on a tangent.

We have to jump around a bit sometimes and might need a little time to catch up after absences but we all have lives to live outside PW and we've always been happy to accommodate these little stumblings. The camaraderie we develop here and in the ABF at large is as important to us as the progress we make.

As I said, there's nothing stopping you progressing further or with more material on your own but there's nothing so valuable to our physical, spiritual and mental well-being as human interaction and nowhere more welcoming than here. Let's keep it open.

_________________________
Richard

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#2283489 - 05/30/14 08:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1279
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Never in this series of threads has anyone been made to feel as though they're interrupting anything. We've always been happy to stop and answer questions, offer practical advice to anyone wanting to learn anything outside our selected pieces, go back to earlier pieces or discuss topics off on a tangent.

+1
And in a mixed audience, probably a good idea if we state this right upfront and reassure people about it frequently.
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Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
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I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2283498 - 05/30/14 09:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: keystring
The very first thing I saw when I checked on this thread originally was the performance of Godowski's arrangement of Schubert's Moment Musical (one of the Moments musicaux). There is also a score by Dire tonic, highlighting particular notes that were brought out - this bringing out of significant notes was also a discussion that was begun in the previous year.

The April posts plopped these various interesting subjects but not much was done with any of them. I wasn't able to be around that month. In this one topic we have two things:
- Schubert's original piece
- What Godowski did with it.
I don't know how easy it is to draw out what is in the two pieces and how they relate because the idea of it is new to me - can we (according to our disparate abilities) do it by ear? by comparing scores? by examining the scores. This caught my interest.

Saw this earlier - meant to reply, but forgot about it.

Originally Posted By: keystring
can we do it by ear? by comparing scores? by examining the scores.

It's a combination, and it depends what you're trying to do. If you're trying to look at how Godowsky added to the Schubert original, then comparing the scores would be important, in addition to using one's ear. If you're just looking at one or the other, study of the score compounded with listening and playing it is the best way to go. One cannot just use one method of study.
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Polyphonist

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#2283807 - 05/31/14 05:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Yes, agree. What I was trying to say is that I'm not committing to anything in that regard, because I haven't looked at anything closely yet. Those were some of the considerations.

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#2283866 - 05/31/14 08:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1268
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Please excuse me while I squeeze in here.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

52 seems a logical place to stop, being a sectional division. Where to go next - perhaps the trio?


Good to M55. But before moving right along, the best I will do in M39, is to try and pedal the LH Bb while playing chord below it. Also, not really sure about m44. Can this be played as a stride chord to include the low Bb?

Then, fine to continue to the trio.I think I know where you mean. It starts at the first set of repeats?

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#2283926 - 05/31/14 11:27 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Also, not really sure about m44. Can this be played as a stride chord to include the low Bb?

What's a stride chord?

Originally Posted By: Greener
Then, fine to continue to the trio.I think I know where you mean. It starts at the first set of repeats?

C major, bar 141, yes.
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Polyphonist

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#2283955 - 06/01/14 12:20 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1268
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

What's a stride chord?


Well, instead of playing a solid chord in LH -- impossible -- I play the low Bb and, wait for it ... stride up to the rest of the chord cool . Rolling is not an option. So, it is either play it stride, or forget the low Bb. However, it looks kind of important as there is a double strike of it.



Edited by Greener (06/01/14 12:24 AM)

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#2283958 - 06/01/14 12:23 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

What's a stride chord?


Well, instead of playing a solid chord in LH -- impossible -- I play the low Bb and, wait for it ... stride up to the rest of the chord cool . It is either that, or I forget the low Bb. However, it looks kinda important as there is also a double strike of it.

Well, of course, you have to do that, unless you're Rachmaninoff with a gargantuan stretch. grin (Actually, I don't think even Rachmaninoff had an octave between 5 and 3...)
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Polyphonist

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#2283983 - 06/01/14 01:11 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1268
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

What's a stride chord?


Well, instead of playing a solid chord in LH -- impossible -- I play the low Bb and, wait for it ... stride up to the rest of the chord cool . It is either that, or I forget the low Bb. However, it looks kinda important as there is also a double strike of it.

Well, of course, you have to do that ...


Why then would they not write it as such, if no one could possibly play it as it is written (solid chord).

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#2283988 - 06/01/14 01:34 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

What's a stride chord?


Well, instead of playing a solid chord in LH -- impossible -- I play the low Bb and, wait for it ... stride up to the rest of the chord cool . It is either that, or I forget the low Bb. However, it looks kinda important as there is also a double strike of it.

Well, of course, you have to do that ...


Why then would they not write it as such, if no one could possibly play it as it is written (solid chord).

In my edition it's written as a grace note.
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Polyphonist

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#2284058 - 06/01/14 08:23 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
keystring Offline
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Loc: Canada
Could you guys do us a favour: Give the name of the piece, which movement if there is a movement - If there is an edition you are using which we can follow on-line (if it makes a difference), that too. Otherwise none of this can be followed by anyone.
Originally Posted By: Greener
Please excuse me while I squeeze in here.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

52 seems a logical place to stop, being a sectional division. Where to go next - perhaps the trio?


Good to M55. But before moving right along, the best I will do in M39, is to try and pedal the LH Bb while playing chord below it. Also, not really sure about m44. Can this be played as a stride chord to include the low Bb?

Then, fine to continue to the trio.I think I know where you mean. It starts at the first set of repeats?

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#2284060 - 06/01/14 08:27 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: keystring
Could you guys do us a favour: Give the name of the piece, which movement if there is a movement - If there is an edition you are using which we can follow on-line (if it makes a difference), that too. Otherwise none of this can be followed by anyone.

It's clear that we are resuming the discussion of the Beethoven-Liszt from earlier - same piece, same movement. We may not be using the same edition.
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Polyphonist

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