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#2044174 - 03/06/13 09:23 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Ok - I see how it works I think - You have to find the right tightness of the top nut and then add felt on the top or bottom of the pedal to accommodate what you want.

I'm not sure if I'm mechanically inclined or not - I worked as a carpenter for a few months but then I went in another direction. I liked doing it though. Also, I just moved into a new house, and I've been enjoying learning how to fix things up.

I would rather be playing the piano than fixing it - I can say that smile I just really don't want to wait for a technician...It can take weeks to schedule sometimes, and I want this fixed.
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#2044176 - 03/06/13 09:26 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1224
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
You have to find the right tightness of the top nut and then add felt on the top or bottom of the pedal to accommodate what you want.
You have to find the right tightness of the top nut and then add felt on the top or bottom of the pedal to accommodate what you want.


Yes! smile

But call your tech soon as well.


Edited by accordeur (03/06/13 09:28 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#2044180 - 03/06/13 09:30 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
OK. Thanks so much for the help. I really appreciate it. I think I've got this figured out now. I guess there are probably other ways to approach this or fine tune it (like adding a spring) - but I think I can at least put something together that works for now until the tech can come.
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pianokeys135
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#2044181 - 03/06/13 09:31 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
accordeur Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1224
Loc: Québec, Canada
All the best!
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#2044200 - 03/06/13 10:35 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: Mark R.]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Olek
The pedal when fully pushed may not raise the dampers much more than tge keys. A little only.


Thanks for this info. I didn't know this. It's useful to know.


On my M&H, when the damper pedal is fully depressed, depressing a key fully further raises the damper by about a millimetre. This seems to be opposite to your requirement. I do not have the knowledge to determine if this is within normal parameters. Any thoughts anyone?

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#2044207 - 03/06/13 10:47 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
accordeur Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1224
Loc: Québec, Canada
Ideally the keys lift dampers about the same as the pedal.

On grands and uprights the mechanics are quite different. So if you are talking about a grand, it's another story.

On grands, the dampers can actually "jump" up enough for you to feel their return in the key. That is why there is a damper stop rail.

On uprights, the dampers are spring activated, another story all together.

Bottom line is to make them work.
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Jean Poulin

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#2044214 - 03/06/13 10:56 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: accordeur]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Thanks for your input, though I am confused by your answer. I have a grand. Please explain in a little more detail. This is interesting.

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#2044215 - 03/06/13 10:57 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21912
Loc: Oakland
If the damper pedal does not lift the dampers as much as the keys, it might be possible to have the sostenuto pedal hold only the notes played even if the damper pedal is being used when you use the sostenuto pedal. That would be an advantage.
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#2044218 - 03/06/13 10:59 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Mwm Offline
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Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
What a cool thought.

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#2044470 - 03/07/13 11:08 AM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I did not understood it is a grand they raise the dampers about the same with pedal or keys, my usual tip is to see the flat dampers rise 5 mm with the sustain pedal.

If there is a sustenuto pedal it is common that this pedla rise the dampers a mm more than the sustain pedal.

Hence a little more play (up) allowed with the note at full dip (the damper head can rise 2-3 mm on white keys, less on black keys because they will be higher yet)
Above 4 mm free raise of the damper when a key is bottoming you begin to feel the damper return in the key and this is disturbing.
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#2044472 - 03/07/13 11:10 AM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: BDB
If the damper pedal does not lift the dampers as much as the keys, it might be possible to have the sostenuto pedal hold only the notes played even if the damper pedal is being used when you use the sostenuto pedal. That would be an advantage.


Could it be made volontarly ? little raise of the damper with the pedal is takin a risk with wedged felts (ringings)

you may need to play firmly enough so the damper sustenuto tab is passed frankly
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2044557 - 03/07/13 03:23 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Ugh - ok - so I tightened the top nut as much as I can while still maintaining a decent staccato, but the pedal still doesn't have enough tension on it. If I tighten the top nut all the way, that might be enough tension but the dampers won't be sitting on the strings any more while not pressing the pedal and the staccato goes away...


What are my options at this point? I guess one is to put an additional spring in or do something with the U spring, like move it's location along the wooden lever or put in a stronger U spring. Maybe another is to shorten the vertical dowel that runs upward from the end of the wooden lever, so that I can tighten the top nut more without loosing the staccato? Is there a way to adjust when the dampers are coming off the strings at some point after (above) the vertical dowel?
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2044565 - 03/07/13 03:38 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4231
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135


What are my options at this point?


Call a tech, make an appointment.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2044567 - 03/07/13 03:39 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
I did that! It takes them a while, so I'm trying to figure something out in the meantime.
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amateur piano player

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#2044578 - 03/07/13 03:52 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Did you tighten the screws that hold the U spring . You could cut a little the rod but forcing on the spring too much can make it break. Usually there is no real problem with pedals. On a grand a new spring is used on verticals a shim can add some tension
.on my pianos the pressure needed is more than enough, may be 2 kg. Is your Hoffman dating after 91 ?

I changed som U springs that broke because of low quality. Beforethen tgey where too light.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2044579 - 03/07/13 03:54 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4231
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Easy to figure out; it is called patience.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2044591 - 03/07/13 04:01 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
"Patience." I'm not familiar with that one... laugh

My Hoffmann is a few years old. Maybe a 2010 or some time around then.
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2044593 - 03/07/13 04:04 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
The U spring screws seem to be ok. I don't really want to play around with those - It would make me nervous. Maybe I'll go to the hardware and see if they have any springs that might work temporarily. I'm not a technician, so I don't want to do anything too serious like cutting the vertical dowel or moving the U spring location without working with a technician, but I don't see the harm in sticking a small spring in the hole that the pedal goes into, under the pedal.
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2044610 - 03/07/13 04:16 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Yes I understand, we dont move the location as we need the good leverage but the spring can be stiffened a little if it is in good condition.

W. Hoffman made in Langlau had good parts, (where among the finest German verticals) then the brand have been baught by Bechstein and the original factory closed, the first pianos where build by Petrof and possibly the pedal spring is a little soft or misplaced.
More recently the models where buil by the Bechstein factory in ex RDA, the quality of the accessories is suppose dto be good in all cases


Edited by Olek (03/07/13 04:17 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2044612 - 03/07/13 04:16 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4231
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Best of luck with the instant gratification.

As Isaac has stated previously the U springs are subject to breaking at the bottom of the curve.

I think the U spring is broken or has deformed and is on its way to breaking.


A half inch diameter coil spring under the pedal. Going to be noisy....
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2044617 - 03/07/13 04:18 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I installed yet a coil spring under the U (the problem is to find an adequate spring)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2044746 - 03/07/13 08:05 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
OK. I put a 1.5" (length) spring underneath the pedal with a piece of felt under the spring. The spring is right inside the front panel underneath the pedal. It seems to be a pretty snug fit, so I don't think it will come loose. The tension is sufficient to hold my foot up, but now it seems like it might be too difficult to hold the pedal down in a fully depressed position! shocked Maybe loosening the top nut a bit will help. This is like the Goldilocks problem. Not too hot not too cold...

I think I'll just leave it for now. I wonder, though, if a 3" (length) spring inside of the U spring would have better results. It's not silent the way it is now, but it's not overly loud either. It might actually be quieter than it was before I started fiddling with it. I could probably play around with this thing forever, but instead I'm going to get back to practicing for now!
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2050592 - 03/19/13 01:40 AM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
I've recently noticed that on grand pianos, the pedals seem to be set a few inches farther back from the keyboard (I'm referring to the horizontal distance from where the white keys end to where the pedals are), which gives you a few extra inches of leg room on grands as compared to uprights. I've been sitting at grands lately and I find that the extra space makes sitting at a grand seem more comfortable to me than sitting at an upright.

Are there standard dimensions for this horizontal distance between the end of the keys and the pedals on grands and/or on uprights, or does this tend to vary from piano to piano?
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pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2050609 - 03/19/13 02:28 AM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21912
Loc: Oakland
It varies. Grand pianos tend to have the pedals set up so the soft pedal is at the back of the keys to avoid making a complicated lever, and longer grands tend to have longer keys.
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#2050790 - 03/19/13 12:09 PM Re: Pedals - Adjusting Pedals & Pedal Height [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
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Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks BDB.

I didn't know that longer grands had longer keys. I assume that longer keys would allow for a better keyboard action (more control for the player)? Also, do grands generally have longer keys than uprights?

I guess I was talking about the front of the keys where I wrote the back of the keys in the post above. I was trying to discuss the horizontal distance between where the white keys end (on the end of the keys closest to the player) and where the pedals are positioned. I guess it makes more sense to refer to the end of the keys that is inside the piano as the back of the keys and the end closest to the player as the front of the keys.

I suppose I should look at some diagrams or pictures of how the pedals connect to the internal mechanisms of the piano to understand how the geometry and spatial relationships between keys and pedals are set up.
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