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#2046970 - 03/12/13 12:41 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

"And no, your not right at all."
And you're complaining about what other people say and how they say it?

Plover, that was a cleaned-up version of what I should have said. grin

And I would like to register a further complaint, which I may take to the Supreme Court of Piano World: Why did you change my spelling of "you're" to the wrong thing? ha

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#2046981 - 03/12/13 01:19 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

He expressed what he thought needed to be done and then gave the recording as a specific example of one that he thought illustrated his point. Exactly the way teachers do in lessons and master classes all the time. You make it sound like all he did was say "You're version is terrible and this is how it should be done" but that wasn't the case at all.


I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

I find it bizarre that someone asking for a critique would be upset if someone told them that they felt some famous pianist plays it more to their liking(after explaining what their liking meant). Well, of course, they do! If a PW member who posts a recording isn't willing to admit this and learn from a recording by a great professional there's little hope for them to improve. A great professional pianist has a lot more to say than most anyone on this forum.


I missed the part where Phil asked for a critique. But that aside, what Louis said was clear enough without the recording.
I'm sure Phil has plenty of favorite recordings that he can draw on if he wishes.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If someone posts a professional recording as an example of what they think needs changing, I see no difference between that and what teachers do all the time.


Okay then, what needs changing? If the opinion wasn't clear in words, what does the recording teach us? Does Rubinstein teach us the same, Horowitz, Cortot? What did the recording add? Sorry, it's just rude.
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#2046999 - 03/12/13 01:39 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.
Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.

Originally Posted By: Damon
I missed the part where Phil asked for a critique. But that aside, what Louis said was clear enough without the recording. I'm sure Phil has plenty of favorite recordings that he can draw on if he wishes.
When someone posts a recording it's usually assumed they want comments. Otherwise, why start a thread? Many posters made comments about the recording so they must all have assumed comments were appropriate. Whether what Louis said was clear enough is a matter of opinion. But if words were always clear enough teachers wouldn't illustrate what they mean on the piano. Louis posted a particular recording to illustrate the point he was making which I think is far different from saying someone can go to YouTube and listen to random performances.

Originally Posted By: Damon
Okay then, what needs changing? If the opinion wasn't clear in words, what does the recording teach us? Does Rubinstein teach us the same, Horowitz, Cortot? What did the recording add?
Louis chose a particular recording to illustrate his point. Another recording might or might not illustrate his point. I think asking what the recording adds is like asking why should a teacher ever illustrate their point on the piano. I don't think that words are always clear enough and, in fact, think they are often feeble compared to illustrating at the piano. What other reason would there be for teachers illustrating their point that way?

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#2047016 - 03/12/13 02:22 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2719
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
[... The poster simply isn't close to capable of making judgments like what he was purporting to do, and the details that he talks about seem to have no particular relation to this performance.



Louis was already in my ignore list. So I didn't read what he said. So, I agree with Mark's comment about him.

That said, since Carey is old friends with him and he does forgive him, what are we discussing here really?

I think it is just a flame war between others who have some past issues between them and using this thread as a leverage.

Please go fight somewhere else, will you!
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#2047133 - 03/12/13 05:45 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.
Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.


Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO.
I would fire any teacher that directed me to a recording.

Originally Posted By: PL
But if words were always clear enough teachers wouldn't illustrate what they mean on the piano. Louis posted a particular recording to illustrate the point he was making which I think is far different from saying someone can go to YouTube and listen to random performances.


I don't think the posting of a recording without comment on specific things in that recording clarify anything that wasn't already clear. I disagree with your opinion that this compares to a teacher's approach.


Originally Posted By: PL
I don't think that words are always clear enough and, in fact, think they are often feeble compared to illustrating at the piano.


I thought the words were plenty clear and the recording a vague illustration....and did I mention, RUDE! laugh
_________________________
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#2047183 - 03/12/13 06:35 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: carey]
pianoloverus Online   content
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For those that think listening to recordings whether suggested by a teacher or otherwise is not a good idea:

"So I think it's a great resource to be able to hear these recordings and to learn from them." Benjamin Grosvenor


Edited by pianoloverus (03/12/13 06:37 PM)

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#2047188 - 03/12/13 06:41 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.
Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.
Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO.
So a couple of measures can be useful but not an whole piece? Only two measures is OK and helpful but three isn't? Or does it become not useful only after ten measures? If Louis had suggested listening to the first ten seconds of the video as an illustration of what he meant it would be useful?


Edited by pianoloverus (03/12/13 06:46 PM)

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#2047282 - 03/12/13 09:50 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.
Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.
Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO.
So a couple of measures can be useful but not an whole piece? Only two measures is OK and helpful but three isn't? Or does it become not useful only after ten measures? If Louis had suggested listening to the first ten seconds of the video as an illustration of what he meant it would be useful?


Now I think you are willfully missing the point. There is no relationship between the INTERACTION of a teacher with their student and the posting of a professional performance. That doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned from a recording.
Quoting teenagers doesn't add gravity to your opinion.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2047338 - 03/12/13 11:05 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.

Oddly, I did -- once. It was a bad teaching moment by a good teacher....well, an okay teacher. ha

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
For those that think listening to recordings whether suggested by a teacher or otherwise is not a good idea:

"So I think it's a great resource to be able to hear these recordings and to learn from them." Benjamin Grosvenor

I also find it hard to understand your difficulty in grasping the distinctions being talked about. What we're talking about here -- posting other recordings on threads like this, or teachers playing recordings for someone at lessons -- has nothing to do with the general thing of whether it's useful to listen to recordings. And that's besides what Damon said about quoting teenagers. grin

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#2047455 - 03/13/13 03:53 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19576
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I also find it hard to understand your difficulty in grasping the distinctions being talked about. What we're talking about here -- posting other recordings on threads like this, or teachers playing recordings for someone at lessons -- has nothing to do with the general thing of whether it's useful to listen to recordings.
But of course it does. They(listening to a teacher play, listening to recordings played by teachers, listening to recordings suggested by posters) all involve learning from listening.

Your comment about Grosvenor makes it sound like he's some random teenager instead of one of the best pianists his age playing today. I assure you he will feel the same way about listening to recordings when he is twice his present age, and I wouldn't be surprised if his teacher suggested listening to recordings.

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Oddly, I did -- once. It was a bad teaching moment by a good teacher....well, an okay teacher.
In your opinion it was a bad teaching moment. The teacher didn't think so.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/13/13 04:24 AM)

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#2047459 - 03/13/13 04:06 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19576
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.
Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.
Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO.
So a couple of measures can be useful but not an whole piece? Only two measures is OK and helpful but three isn't? Or does it become not useful only after ten measures? If Louis had suggested listening to the first ten seconds of the video as an illustration of what he meant it would be useful?


Now I think you are willfully missing the point. There is no relationship between the INTERACTION of a teacher with their student and the posting of a professional performance. That doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned from a recording.
The posting of the professional performance wasn't done in a vacuum. It was preceded by comments from the poster. These are equivalent to comments or interaction from a teacher. In addition, your reply does not seem to address my point that you seemed to think the number of measures was the important consideration.

Originally Posted By: Damon
Quoting teenagers doesn't add gravity to your opinion.
Grosvenor is no longer a teenager and considered by many to be one of the greatest pianists of his generation. Your comment makes it sound like he's some random teenager who knows little about music. Surely you must have read about many great pianists saying how important it is to listen to and learn from to recordings.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/13/13 04:17 AM)

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#2047621 - 03/13/13 12:11 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19830
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus -- to Damon
Grosvenor is no longer a teenager and considered by many to be one of the greatest pianists of his generation. Your comment makes it sound like he's some random teenager....
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus -- to me
....Your comment about Grosvenor ....

Humor!! Humor!!
Ever heard of humor? grin

About the rest, I think this will do:

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#2047805 - 03/13/13 06:29 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The posting of the professional performance wasn't done in a vacuum. It was preceded by comments from the poster. These are equivalent to comments or interaction from a teacher. In addition, your reply does not seem to address my point that you seemed to think the number of measures was the important consideration.


To post a recording in support of general comments is tantamount to saying "you should play it like this guy". It's rude. Teachers show you how to do something or explain why you should do something. This is nothing like that. The number of measures is beside the point.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Originally Posted By: Damon
Quoting teenagers doesn't add gravity to your opinion.
Grosvenor is no longer a teenager and considered by many to be one of the greatest pianists of his generation. Your comment makes it sound like he's some random teenager who knows little about music. Surely you must have read about many great pianists saying how important it is to listen to and learn from to recordings.


Sorry, I missed his last birthday. Perhaps you can quote the great pianists who have said this. Not that it matters because it still doesn't apply to this situation.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2047854 - 03/13/13 08:04 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19576
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The posting of the professional performance wasn't done in a vacuum. It was preceded by comments from the poster. These are equivalent to comments or interaction from a teacher. In addition, your reply does not seem to address my point that you seemed to think the number of measures was the important consideration.


To post a recording in support of general comments is tantamount to saying "you should play it like this guy". It's rude. Teachers show you how to do something or explain why you should do something. This is nothing like that. The number of measures is beside the point.
But your previous post seems to indicate you thought the number of measures was important.

If you read Louis' first post or two he clearly explains why he thinks certain changes are needed... just like you say teachers should do. He doesn't just say play it like this guy without giving reasons for his thinking. Teachers often demonstrate what they are saying which is in effect saying they think "it should be done like this". Posting a recording is IMO no different.


Originally Posted By: Damon
Sorry, I missed his last birthday. Perhaps you can quote the great pianists who have said this. Not that it matters because it still doesn't apply to this situation.
It's not a fact that it doesn't apply although you state this as if it were...it's only your opinion. I certainly think it applies which is why I mentioned it.

Numerous pianists have talked about the importance of listening to other recordings. The only specific one I remember is Irina Morozova, but I do know as a fact I've heard it said countless times. In fact, I think it's basically a given for a serious musician. In books where pianists are interviewed it's extremely common for them to mention specific pianists they've listened to and learned from.

Do you actually think Grosvenor is wrong when he says it's important/useful to listen to recordings of other pianists...that one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what's important and useful?


Edited by pianoloverus (03/13/13 08:18 PM)

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#2047890 - 03/13/13 09:56 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But your previous post seems to indicate you thought the number of measures was important.


It seemed that way to you.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If you read Louis' first post or two he clearly explains why he thinks certain changes are needed... just like you say teachers should do. He doesn't just say play it like this guy without giving reasons for his thinking. Teachers often demonstrate what they are saying which is in effect saying they think "it should be done like this". Posting a recording is IMO no different.


Yes I agree it was pretty arrogant (and rude) for Louis to presume to school Phil in this fashion. I'm glad you agree that Louis explained clearly what he thought was lacking before posting the recording.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Originally Posted By: Damon
Sorry, I missed his last birthday. Perhaps you can quote the great pianists who have said this. Not that it matters because it still doesn't apply to this situation.
It's not a fact that it doesn't apply although you state this as if it were...it's only your opinion. I certainly think it applies which is why I mentioned it.

Numerous pianists have talked about the importance of listening to other recordings. The only specific one I remember is Irina Morozova, but I do know as a fact I've heard it said countless times. In fact, I think it's basically a given for a serious musician. In books where pianists are interviewed it's extremely common for them to mention specific pianists they've listened to and learned from.

Do you actually think Grosvenor is wrong when he says it's important/useful to listen to recordings of other pianists...that one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what's important and useful?


I agree that it is useful especially if you are a lazy reader, important, not so much. Particularly since you can't listen to a professional recording that isn't "fixed" in a number of ways (except maybe Cortot). If Grosvenor credits his CD MP3 collection for his abilities, in any manner, then yes, one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what is important.
I'm sure you can find a large number of jazz pianists that do this since their language is built upon stealing each others riffs. Are you sure Morozova isn't just the only classical example you can remember?

Go ahead and have the last word. We will continue to have opposing views on this subject. smile
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2047891 - 03/13/13 09:59 PM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: carey]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6221
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: carey

Gave this my best shot.


I think you did a fine job!
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2048096 - 03/14/13 08:56 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But your previous post seems to indicate you thought the number of measures was important.
It seemed that way to you.
You said "Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO."

Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If you read Louis' first post or two he clearly explains why he thinks certain changes are needed... just like you say teachers should do. He doesn't just say play it like this guy without giving reasons for his thinking. Teachers often demonstrate what they are saying which is in effect saying they think "it should be done like this". Posting a recording is IMO no different.
Yes I agree it was pretty arrogant (and rude) for Louis to presume to school Phil in this fashion. I'm glad you agree that Louis explained clearly what he thought was lacking before posting the recording.
I didn't say it was arrogant or rude or that Louis was "schooling" Phil. Louis made suggestions, explained his reasons for the suggestions, and then posted a recording that he felt illustrated what he was saying.


Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Numerous pianists have talked about the importance of listening to other recordings. The only specific one I remember is Irina Morozova, but I do know as a fact I've heard it said countless times. In fact, I think it's basically a given for a serious musician. In books where pianists are interviewed it's extremely common for them to mention specific pianists they've listened to and learned from.

Do you actually think Grosvenor is wrong when he says it's important/useful to listen to recordings of other pianists...that one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what's important and useful?


I agree that it is useful especially if you are a lazy reader, important, not so much. Particularly since you can't listen to a professional recording that isn't "fixed" in a number of ways (except maybe Cortot). If Grosvenor credits his CD MP3 collection for his abilities, in any manner, then yes, one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what is important.
I'm sure you can find a large number of jazz pianists that do this since their language is built upon stealing each others riffs. Are you sure Morozova isn't just the only classical example you can remember?
When world class pianists advocate listening to recordings it has nothing to do with be a lazy reader. The reason is simple...they think there is something to learn from other great pianists. Of course, Grosvenor doesn't credit his abilities solely to his listening to recordings. That's simply one of the many things he has done to learn about music.

I clearly stated in my last post that Morozova was the only specific example(besides Grosvenor)I could remember who talked about the importance of listening to recordings, and I also clearly stated that I had read countless comments in books about other pianists that expressed the same opinion. This kind of comment from pianists is ubiquitous.

Neither jazz pianists nor classical pianists invent the wheel in terms of playing. They both take ideas from teachers, other musicians, recordings, and concerts and use them in whatever way they think appropriate.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/14/13 11:41 AM)

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#2050620 - 03/19/13 03:19 AM Re: Chopin - Nocturne Opus 37 No. 1 [Re: carey]
carey Online   content
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Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6413
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
This thread certainly took on a life of its own....... wow

Louis and I have continued to communicate through PMs. He's introduced me to some wonderful recordings by pianist Mieczyslaw Horszowski.

The recording that Louis posted in this thread by French pianist Thierry de Brunhoff was made in 1973 - a year before de Brunhoff entered the Benedictine Monastery where he has lived as a member for 40 years. Through a little research, I was delighted to learn that Thierry's father Jean, an artist, and mother Cecile, a pianist, were the co-creators of the Babar the Elephant series of children's books in the early 1930s - which I fondly recall enjoying 60 years ago as a young child. Until this week I had no idea about the origin of those popular books.

I do want to thank folks here for their supportive comments - and suggestions. When the dust settles a bit, I'm going to re-record the Nocturne to see if, indeed, I can improve on this initial effort.
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